Nativism and the Alt Right/Alt Lite

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Okiefreak, Aug 11, 2018.

  1. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    "A spectre is haunting Europe", and it ain't Communism. It's the spectre of nativism--an old ghost with a new labels, AltRight and AltLeft--and it's stalking North America, too. Time to take a closer look at it. What's it all about? How did it get started? What are its causes and effects? Is it good or evil? What, if anything can/should we do about it? Will we survive?

    Nativism:the policy of protecting the interests of native inhabitants against those of immigrants.
    the definition of nativism A xenophobic species of populism.

    Populism: political program or movement that champions the common person, usually by favourable contrast with an elite.populism | History, Facts, & Examples

    AltRight: a political movement originating on social media and online forums, composed of a segment of conservatives who support extreme right-wing ideologies, including white nationalism and anti-Semitism (often used attributively).the definition of alt-right

    AltLite: a loosely connected movement of right-wing activists who reject the overtly white supremacist ideology of the alt right, but ... embraces misogyny and xenophobia, and abhors “political correctness” and the left. From Alt Right to Alt Lite: Naming the Hate

    AltLeft: A term used by the Right for people on the Far Left they don't like, including Antifa and possibly the "socialist" wing of the Democrats.

    "A spectre is haunting Europe." Those were the dramatic opening words of Marx's Communist Manifesto. Marx had Communism in mind, and thought it would be the inevitable result of the contradictions of capitalism and ensuing growth and misery for the proletariat who would rise up and take over because they had "nothing to lose but their chains". Marx underestimated the force of nationalism and the fact that status insecurity was a more important driver of human action than economic deprivation. Hitler got that right. By playing on the fears and status insecurities of Germans plagued by postwar economic dislocations, Hitler was able to scapegoat the Jews and start a "Make Germany Great Again" movement that brought this obviously twisted Bavarian corporal to power. Mark Twain said "History Doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes." The spectre haunting Europe today, nativism, is the same xenophobic populism haunting the United States in the 1850s under the name of the Know Nothing movement; that haunted Germany under the Weimar Republic: and that brought Trump to the Oval Office in the United States. What I hope to do on this thread is to examine this phenomenon in the United States, Europe and Canada, and to see if we can understand what makes it tick.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
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  2. Noserider

    Noserider Goofy-Footed Member

    What about the AltLeft?
     
  3. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    Good question. As I understand it, the AltLeft is a term coined by the right as a pejorative epithet. The term "Alt Right" was invented by Richard Spencer, its purported founder. "Few, if any, people on the left claim to be part of anything called the alt-left, as the term was created in an attempt to demean leftists and imply they are morally equivalent to the alt-right." What is the "alt-left" Trump was talking about? - CBS News The term is a favorite of Sean Hannity, and Trump himself, after the Charlottesville incident whose anniversary we commemorate today, gave it credence: "What about the alt-left that came charging at, what you say, the alt-right? Do they have any semblence of guilt? What about the fact they charging with clubs in their hands, swinging clubs, do they have any problem? I think they do."
    What is the "alt-left" Trump was talking about? - CBS News
    https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/what-is-alt-left/

    If we include the AltLeft, we'd have to define its boundaries from the outside and ask how it differs from the old left. The AltRght distinguishes itself from the old right in rejecting many of the traditional tenets of conservatism--especially free trade agreements and military alliances. How would the AltLeft differ from progressivism, and who exactly would be included in the term? Antifa no doubt, which seems to be distinguished by a willingness to use violence and direct action. And the followers of Bernie, who seem to differ from Hillary's establishment liberals in opposing "neoliberalism' and showing a willingness to embrace "socialism" and protectionism, which is new for Democrats. In that sense, both "Alt " movements are opposed to the establishments of the two major parties. Gil Troy, writing in the establishment weekly Time agrees talking about an AltLeft makes sense: "The “alt-left” is also a 'paranoid fringe'… steeped in… resentment,” and some of the resentment is 'racial,' although moral, in that it is resisting racism. It too is 'loosely organized, mostly online,' wallowing as the alt-right does in Internet-fueled hysteria and harshness. It too rejects 'mainstream' ideology, in this case, liberalism." Why the 'Alt-Left' Is a Problem James Wolcott in Vanity Fair agrees. The Alt Left, he says shows "the same loathing of Clinton, rejection of 'identity politics,' and itch for a reckoning."
    So is Alt Left simply a new name for the anti-Hillary left?
    Alt-Right, Alt-Left, Antifa: A Glossary of Extremist Language
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
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  4. Monkey Boy

    Monkey Boy Senior Member

    One of the guys on their list Jason Reza Jorjani is actually against nativism and advocates for a tolerant, open and cosmopolitan society similar to ancient Persia. Persia was the first empire to outlaw slavery. He is one of the main voices advocating for a renaissance in Iran. 70% of Iran's population is under the age of 30 and they tend to be more tolerant and progressive.
     
  5. Noserider

    Noserider Goofy-Footed Member

    I only bring it up because you mention the AltLeft in your thread title. Or was that a typo and you meant AltLite?
     
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  6. Running Horse

    Running Horse Workin' on bein' an ol' asshole

    Does any of this shit actually matter? If it does I sure as hell can't see it
     
  7. I think that it's intelligent to be aware of these things. Even more so because it'll leave you (us all) better equipped to combat their propaganda when it's encountered. I see a lot of the "I see your point" element when dealing with these clowns. Don't bother seeing their point. Their underlying message or the rhetoric surrounding these topics is disgraceful in my opinion.

    ok so, I am against even giving them the time of day. Where's my serious-face emote? :weary:

    EDIT: and we encounter them here, on this site too. just telling you where I stand firmly.
     
  8. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    I'm glad you pointed it out. It was a typo, but it made me do some thinking, which is a good thing. I tried to change the title (unsuccessfully), so I added Alt Left to the agenda. I don't think much has been written about it, but if we define it as Antifa plus the Bernie wing of the Demos, I think there are some interesting parallels. I think both qualify as populist (i.e., anti-establishment), but the AltRight/Alt/lite is nativist and the AltLeft is like the Populist Party of yore: anti-elitist.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
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  9. tumbling.dice

    tumbling.dice I Am Only An Egg Lifetime Supporter HipForums Supporter

    Whatever happened to AltNormalPeople?
     
  10. Tyrsonswood

    Tyrsonswood Senior Moment


    I think there's a law against that now....
     
  11. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    "If you have to ask, you'll never know. If you know, you need only ask." J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.
    Since this "shit" is responsible for a lot of the posts in the Politics section, including yours, I thought it might be worth taking a closer look at to see if we can understand why the MAGA syndrome has taken hold. This shit gave us the Big Shit in the White House. I was on another thread earlier where somebody accused a guy of being AltRight and he said he wasn't because he wasn't a racist. What I think he was was AltLite. That's when I thought it might be good to have a place to sort it out.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
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  12. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    Good question. They've become an endangered species.
     
  13. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    Don't know much about Jason, but he presents a unique profile for an AltRighter. He's a nerdy intellectual academic and former New Jersey Insitute of Technology lecturer with a Ph.D., who was let go after his AltRight activities became known and he was accused of anti-Semitism. He worked closely with Richard Spencer, the first to use the term AltRight, but split with Spencer because Spencer was too "populist" for him. As you say, he sees Persia as the golden age, which is understandable, given his name and part-Iranian heritage. He uses the Persian connection to establish an Aryan connection. He was with Spencer at the infamous National Policy Institute AltRight meeting after the election of Trump, where Spencer said "Hail Trump'" and everybody gave the stiff-armed Nazi salute. He believes in UFOs and paranormal phenomena, and predicts that concentration camps will be making a comeback. In other words, he strikes me as a kook--probably classifiable as AltLite, but not typical of anything. "Tolerant" and "progressive" aren't adjectives usually associated with him, unless we're being really relative, with neo-Nazis as the reference group.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  14. Monkey Boy

    Monkey Boy Senior Member

    I've actually listened to some of his lectures, because I've been studying ancient Persia and Zoroastrianism this summer. He's actually highly intelligent. well spoken and knowledgeable. A journalist pretending to be a college student studying for a paper had an interview with him with a hidden camera. The journlists took some comments out of context and spliced some of the video to make it look like Jason supported Nazis and then had it published in the New York times. He immediately lost his job after the story came out. He's now suing for defamation and is a good example of someone who is getting hurt through accusations that have no evidence to back them up. One of his good friends is Jeffrey Mishlove who has interviewed him multiple times and is Jewish. They have a 45 minute show all about how he's being targeted.
     
  15. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    Zoroastrianism, eh. That's a pretty esoteric field of study. I happen to think Judaism and Christianity owe more to the Zoroastrians than they're aware of. I'll have to check out those lectures myself. Thanks.
     
  16. Running Horse

    Running Horse Workin' on bein' an ol' asshole

    Wouldn't be surprised. Soon it'll be illegal to take a shit without askin' it's political stance.

    'Cuse me turd are you for or against Trump?
    Hey it came from a helpful place in your soul what more can anyone ask. My opinion is that it don't fuckin' matter. You find value in such things you do.
     
  17. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter HipForums Supporter

    Forty years of extensive studies have shown the republican party is organized along the same lines as a flock of chickens, and similar studies by neurologists concluded our neurons organize in the same fashion. Chickens demand pecking orders, explaining how in Rwanda the Europeans created a form of artificial racism by merely dividing the native population into arbitrary categories and treating one preferentially. What I additionally discovered is that one in five Americans insists the sun revolves around the earth, over half enjoy debating the definition of stupid and who is the best example, while their teachers complain that nobody believes in Darwinism. In over ten years of my asking not a single person knew the simple distinction between a lynch mob and a democracy, and not one of them knew the dictionary merely contains popular definitions. In the brain our neurons are forced to organize like chickens because they cannot organize efficiently in their vast numbers using any more complex criteria.

    Of course, that doesn't make us chickens, but it explains all the confusion and contention in politics and it offers serious hope for addressing such problems. Chickens merely follow the food around and organize according to who has the better memory making their behavior so incredibly predictable it can be used to change their behavior. Explaining all the ways that can be done would take too long, but it means that humor plays a central role and the entire process can even be automated in countless ways. What it requires to be the most successful is cutting edge mathematics we don't have yet, but soon will. The days of thinking of the human mind, brain, and heart as fathomless mysteries are almost over and the next scientific revolution is about to begin.
     
  18. snowtiggernd

    snowtiggernd Member

    That would be a good bumper sticker.
     
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  19. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    So you do seem to be concerned about the political trends in the country. But it don't fuckn' matter? I think you're right that tuning it all out may be conducive to sanity and mental health, but the more we and others do that, the more headway the folks will make who want to take it all away from us. Somebody has to keep watch.
     
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  20. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

    Wait until the pivotal centre hears about this!
     
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