National Identity Card Scheme

I assume you concede the point then?

 

This post has reminded me of when I was stopped and searched at a roadblock near Canary Wharf for "weapons" just at the beginning of the war. I was in a modern peugeot 406 and my appearence was in no way outlandish. There was absolutely no reason at all to stop me. Did I cooperate? Did I hell ...

I remember the converstion went sort of like this:

PC: "We need you to open your boot"

Me: "Oh why is that?"

PC: "To check that you aren't carrying any weapons"

Me: "hahahaaha, so you think I'm a terrorist do you? ... I'm sorry I've got better things to do"

starts winding up window

PC: "You have to understand that there is a war on"

Me: "You don't say, I've still got better things to do than deal with you lot accusing me of being a terrorist"

PC: "Right, step out of the car"

Me: "What happens if I don't?"

PC: "Well then we will have to arrest you"

Me: "Oh yeah? On what charge?"

PC: "Obstructing a policeman in the course of his duties and also we may have to hold you under the prevention of terrorism act"

steps out of car

Me: "Happy now?"

PC: "Can you open the boot please?"

Me: "If you want the boot open then you open it"

PC calls to his colleague to come over, they go to the back and look in my empty boot

Me: "Found anything? Kalashnakov maybe, look in the spare wheel, you might see some semtex next to that rocket launcher"

pc returns empty handed

PC: "Right, what's your name and address, can I see some identification?"

Me: "Paul M*****, I didn't think I had to tell you my address or show you anything to prove it"

PC: "No you don't, but not doing so makes me highly suspicious"

Me: "Well you'll have to be highly suspicious then ... can I go yet?"

PC: "Yes, you can, I hope you understand why we are doing this"

Me: "I'm really not happy with this, you are totally abusing my liberty here, can I have your shoulder number please?"

PC: "Of course you can, you have to understand that we have our orders and we are fully aware that you are not happy with this. I'm based at Leman Street if you want any further assistance."

he writes number on post-it type note and hands it to me

Me: "I might complain about this"

PC: "Well you are totally in your rights to do so but it won't get you very far."

Takes number, gets in car and drives off

 

I was also stopped under the same stupid anti terrorist crap at the DSEi protests and again since.

I now know what it must feel like to be a terrorised ethnic minority in the UK, bullied and antagonised by jobsworth middle-class idiots.

 

so is this a debate? or an argument?

are we sharing ideas, offering views and (hopefully) gaining insight, understanding and broadening horizons?

or using our superior argument to quash any silly opposition?

To debate one needs to have a respect for the others point of view. This, I understand, can sometimes be very difficult, because the very essence of some folks point of view is that they have missed your point, but that is their loss, not yours. Remember that however dim the light may shine the other side of the debate the person who thinks that way usually has reason to do so, and therefore you can offer at least some understanding.



On one side there seems to be an argument based on the assumption that we live in a free state, and the powers-that-be exist to wrestle with the complexities and try to gain some control over the mayhem that is society.



On the other side there seems to be an argument based on the assumption that society, all be it with a veneer of freedom, is very controlling, for some more than others. Within this argument is the understanding that the best oppressed people a society can operate with are those that think they are free. And the control is usually to the benefit of a few, whilst paid for by many.



The first argument seems on the face of it to be the optimistic one, the second the pessimistic. This may or may not be the case, probably a fair mix. Some people who follow the second train of thought are quite optimistic, and that is why they fight to try to make out society and the laws that we use to govern it better.



But, the thing that amazes me is that with each and every controversial turn of the law the upholders of the first train of thought criticise the upholders of the second train of thought for opposing/protesting/generally looking out for what they believe is the best interests of the people. And yet it is the upholders of the second train of thought who, throughout history, have made the biggest contribution to the changes that have made our society what it is today, what the folk from the first train of thought proudly boast as being good and true - freedom of speech, freedom from slavery, the right to vote, the right to a fair trial, etc etc etc.



and this, the ID card, is just another issue to squabble over!





Internet forums are weird in terms of communication. Rarefied places, no other communication just text, and a chance to formulate, proof read, then edit where necessary. Folk just end up throwing arguments at each other.


Instead of arguing about who has the right argument, try putting forward an argument each and seeing who can score the most points at trying to understand the opponents argument the best.

That way you will surely learn and be enlightened, whatever side of the fence you sit on.

 

Respect is earned.

 

or bought on ebay...

 

Isn't it funny that in Kiev, right now, there are thousands of people protesting because they feel their democratic rights have been violated due to the interferance from Moscow... and they are prepared to protest on freezing streets into they see their vital right to free election reinstated... these people have been on the other side of the fence... they know what it is like to live in an undemocratic society and, now that they have gained certain freedoms and liberties, they are prepared to defemd them in the strongest possible manner...


Compare that to the reactions of the population in this country... the government is prepared to remove fundamental rights and the populace just rolls over for another kicking... we have confused democracy with decadence... we couldn't give a shit about having to carry samples of shit and semen just as long as we continue to have our widescreen televisions and mobile phones... we confude freedom with getting pissed on a Saturday night or buying another fucking charity single... we don't have a clue what freedom means because we have allowed successive governments to erode the very concept over years and years...

Why don't we just opt for a proper fascist regime for a while?... maybe to live under a regime that would remove our supposed freedoms totally may rekindle the desire to liberate us from those who perceive that they can tell us what to do... and then the Americans could come and invade us... hmmmm, I meant rescue us...

If I live in a supposed democracy, I shouldn't be forced into carrying anything... it should be my choice... anything less just proves that to call the Uk a democratic state is anything less than a fucking lie...

Fly...

 

Because that would fucking suck beyond belief....

you said "If I live in a supposed democracy, I shouldn't be forced into carrying anything... it should be my choice... anything less just proves that to call the Uk a democratic state is anything less than a fucking lie..."

Well in a democratic state then in theory if a majority votes for you to carry a card then yes if you believe in democracy you should carry a card......This is why I don't think democracy is the answer....The majority is not always right..Just look at the good old U S of A..

 

Undoubtedly it would suck... but what of the possible consequences?...


What if people realised that what has been passed off as democracy is nothing but a basdardisation of the greek ideal... that we have been willfully partcipating in an illusion of democracy whereby we have passed off our responsibilities onto parliamentary representatives because we'd rather just sit down and watch tv than take an active participation in the running of this country...

Fly...

 

well then we would be getting somewhere

 

You missed the point entirely. Nineteen Eighty Four was written as a satire on totalitarianism, with a particular view to the Stalinist state in the USSR. It wasn't a prediction on what would happen in Britain. My point is that wherever the potential for totalitarianism emerges it should be resisted. Even if it is just a small step. If the time ever comes that we are stripped of all our civil liberties, we will have no chance to protest. We can only do that before it happens, short of armed insurrection. So when the potential is there for abuse, I think it should be resisted....

 

Yes it may seem that way and I apologise for my overly argumentative tone. However Matthew is a regular contributor here and is someone who always espouses a reactionary / conservative / right-wing viewpoint on any issue, being either unwilling or unable to question things or to participate in a mature and reasoned debate. I am, of course, joking when I call him a fascist ...

 

Actually I don't think we have anything to fear by this. I lived abroad where they all have National ID cards and there is a plus side. When asked to provide ID in the UK we have to mess about with utility bills and or passports / Driving Licence etc and its a real hassle. With an ID card it can work to our advantage.

Just what are we paranoid about? It's ok screaming civil liberties and personal freedoms etc but I would rather the authorities had the option to check on people when it was needed and perhaps then we might live in a safer environment.

At the moment any Tom Dick and Harry can run around forging identity, stealing others names and ID's and generally getting false ID which is very easy in the UK.

The only people who should be worried about this is people with something to hide. Just a personal view of course but Matthew has a point, just look what crap we all carry around already.

My only thought is that wouldn't efforts be better served in making a credit card type ID that is cloned to adapt and accept our Driving Licence details, passport details and is also our bank card, club card and whatever other darned card we want it to be. Now that would be really helpful.

 

I know that mate...... and I know where you are coming from .... I have seem mathew in many guises before on other forums - every forum seems to have one!
Those thoughts weren't just about this thread, but the way that many threads go on many forums.
just offering my thoughts, thats all.....
the problem is trying to keep such a stance in the face of an argument! I have tried on many occasions and failed. It usually goes like this (shortened to the basics):
THEM (their argument)
ME "I see what you are saying, and can understand it because of (bla bla bla) but what I say is this (bla bla bla)"
THEM "your just a yogurt weaving pc doo-gooder and you think you make the rules and haven't I got freedom of speech?"
ME "no, I don't make the rules (unfortunately!) and folk like me fought to give you your freedom of speech and I was just trying to get you to see where I was coming from"
(Argument ensues)


lol!

and, for the fecord, I agreed with the fascist comment!!! lol

 

COBALT_Blue.Actually I don't think we have anything to fear by this. I lived abroad where they all have National ID cards and there is a plus side. When asked to provide ID in the UK we have to mess about with utility bills and or passports / Driving Licence etc and its a real hassle. With an ID card it can work to our advantage.

Then why not keep it opptional for those who have to mess about with bills etc?

Just what are we paranoid about? It's ok screaming civil liberties and personal freedoms etc but I would rather the authorities had the option to check on people when it was needed and perhaps then we might live in a safer environment.

Are you full of fear? Why? Perhaps you should question the reasons?

At the moment any Tom Dick and Harry can run around forging identity, stealing others names and ID's and generally getting false ID which is very easy in the UK.

Really? I didn't think it was such a serious problem. ID cards cant prevent fraud.

The only people who should be worried about this is people with something to hide. Just a personal view of course but Matthew has a point, just look what crap we all carry around already.

The old rightwing nonsense. I take it you aren't an ethnic minority who is already suffering harrasement on a daily basis then?

 

Fortunately in this forum, we yogurt weaving pc do-gooders are by far the majority.

 

i think what scares me the most is not the present, but the future.

right now, although i'm not particularly fond of the current government, they could be a lot lot worse.

if we all had ID cards, then right now i dont think it would affect us hugely, but if a more tyranical government managed to get we would all be completely screwed, coz they have every measurement in place to monitor us constantly. the CCTV cameras are already in place everywhere, they already have far to many powers to stop us for no good reason. the ID cards would allow them so much power that its scary. all we need are the telescreens and microphones and what do we have.........1984.

i will be renewing my passport just in time to avoid getting the cards. i will be doing everything i can to not get one. i would like to see how they will enforce one onto someone with no fixed abode. they will have to find me first!

worst case scenario is i emigrate to a less scary country and either wait till the madness is over, or get duel nationality and re-enter the uk only on my other passport. a bit drastic i know, but i will be surprised if it comes to that. i'm just saying thats what i'd do if it did.

peace and love
stardust
xxx

 

This is exactly the problem. It's not the way they'd be use now that's the problem. It's the potential for abuse that they pose for the future. Civil liberties are very easy to give away, but a lot harder to take back. We should be very wary of sacrificing our freedoms.

 

I wonder how the government intend to propose these cards upon people such as the homeless or Gypsies/travellers?