Muslims In England

It is part of it yes. That's why I added the word primarily

 

I'd actually like

I want East Ukraine to be an independent nation like Slovakia, but the western propaganda routine can't fathom that idea. Everybody has to hate each other for racial reasons.Why not economic subjegation reasons?

 

Surely though the primary motivation for establishing Sharia law is the Koran. Or at least a particular understanding of it.

 

And don't forget the Surah's? The woman is the motivator to democracy.

 

But that they are so unsatisfied with their circumstances and prospects in the UK is not primarily because there isn't sharia law there. Some (I would say most but I'm not sure) didn't even live under sharia law in their homeland. They are triggered to want and claim such a thing but is it primarily out of religious motivation? Some have lived in the UK (and France, Netherlands etc.) for decades without wishing to have sharia law there.

 

I'm not sure if it's because they feel they have few prospects in the uk, or even that they're any worse off economically than millions of Brits. I'd guess they are better off here than in many Islamic countries, as there are better economic opportunities, free health care etc.
I think it's more down to what I said previously, a clash of cultures.

The point that they didn't come from countries where they have Sharia law is valid. But most of the militants here haven't come from anywhere - their parents or grandparents came here looking for a better deal economically. The guys who blew up the tube were all born in the UK. They presumably didn't like the British system much as it goes against many things in Islamic culture - women in mini skirts, gay marriage, hot dog vans etc. And they see the UK as on the offensive in Muslim countries.

This is a difficult and entangled issue, and maybe I'm too close to it to be 100% objective.

No doubt they'd like a greater degree of self-determination. But actually, so would a lot of us.

 

I agree to be clear It is a culture clash. A lot of the people that are 2nd or even 3rd generation immigrants and so basicly have UK as their home and motherland do not seem to feel any loyalty or connection to this homeland. This is partially because they were still raised with morals and values from their parents homeland. And also partially because they have been stigmatized and stereotyped a lot most of their lifes in the UK. But on the same account they also can't fully relate to their parents values, morals and outlooks as they were raised outside of that culture in a different country and it all makes less sense when you grow up and go to school in the UK. This seems to be one of the reasons why some choose to affiliate themselves with extremists that proclaim to have a higher goal, values etc.

 

just mixed up kids.

Maybe - but actually one mistake the UK govt made has been to allow Muslim faith schools, so a lot of the children don't get a standard type of western education. That feeds into the whole lack of integration thing because it just reinforces the differences.

 

Probably yes. Although it seems that a lot of muslim kids that go to islamic schools here don't become troublemakers or extremists in any way. Those schools still do have the obligation and are checked on it to follow national school programs though. And if our country has granted catholics, jews and protestants the right to all have their own schools how biased and hypocritical would it be to not grant that right to muslims? And how constructive would it be to forbid? But it all lies in the details. If the students of those schools never mingle or get used to other kids and their culture(s) it is of course adding to their lack of integration in our society as a whole!

 

Myself I'd do away with all faith schools. That might seem draconian, but I just don't see any advantage for society as a whole in preserving them. If families want to teach their kids religion, well and good, but I don't see why taxpayer money should go towards teaching it.

There have been issues in the UK with a number of Islamic schools being investigated for so called radicalization. And clearly that's not acceptable. There are also big issues around gender equality.

I think it would be much easier to just have a standard education where some teaching would be given about religions, but the ethos of the school secular.

 

Could you provide a document that describes what things are harmful and what things are not? You call all the problems in the world some variation of failing not to cause harm.
It doesn't make a bit of difference what the particulars of sharia law are in this instance. The complaint is over the effort to establish the compulsory observance of things we don't sign up for.

 

That is very different.

 

Many have which is why such statutes by and large no longer exist in the U.S.

 

I don't know how you would prohibit education at any level. There are academic standards so accreditation is the only real tool you have. Cultural identity and the effects of state institutions are not the same thing and supposedly it is the state institution that is the equalizer when it comes to this kind of divergence.

 

Different degrees of the same principle.

While in the decline, they're still fairly widespread. Put pick any religious restriction you want to examine. Gay marriage. Abortion.

But you're both missing the point. What I was trying to say is that the OP is a racist.

 

It would be easy to do away with faith schools in the Uk. Simply pass a law banning them.

It would send a message that this is a secular society where we decide on our own values. But it won't solve the wider problem.

 

Sitka--what you're trying to say is wrong. I made myself as clear as a ringing bell. Uneducated, homicidal maniacs need to be put down.

How can it be put more plainly than that? If I speak against-say-Boko- Haram----am I considered a racist to you?? I never thought

such obscurantism would show as it has. Read--think.


And not that it matters--I don't drink alcohol. Your example was specious.

 

No they are not. An entire county making a decision and law/vote not to sell something is very different from a small precentage in a population trying to make their own laws.

 

We are secular Muslims, and secular persons of Muslim societies. We are believers, doubters, and unbelievers, brought together by a great struggle, not between the West and Islam, but between the free and the unfree.

We affirm the inviolable freedom of the individual conscience. We believe in the equality of all human persons.

We insist upon the separation of religion from state and the observance of universal human rights.

We find traditions of liberty, rationality, and tolerance in the rich histories of pre-Islamic and Islamic societies. These values do not belong to the West or the East; they are the common moral heritage of humankind.

We see no colonialism, racism, or so-called “Islamaphobia” in submitting Islamic practices to criticism or condemnation when they violate human reason or rights.

We call on the governments of the world to reject Sharia law, fatwa courts, clerical rule, and state-sanctioned religion in all their forms; oppose all penalties for blasphemy and apostasy, in accordance with Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human rights;
eliminate practices, such as female circumcision, honor killing, forced veiling, and forced marriage, that further the oppression of women;
protect sexual and gender minorities from persecution and violence;
reform sectarian education that teaches intolerance and bigotry towards non-Muslims; and foster an open public sphere in which all matters may be discussed without coercion or intimidation.
We demand the release of Islam from its captivity to the totalitarian ambitions of power-hungry men and the rigid structures of orthodoxy.

We enjoin academics and thinkers everywhere to embark on a fearless examination of the origins and sources of Islam, and to promulgate the ideals of free scientific and spiritual inquiry through cross-cultural translation, publishing, and the mass media.

We say to Muslim believers: there is a noble future for Islam as a personal faith, not a political doctrine; to Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Baha’is, and all members of non-Muslim faith communities: we stand with you as free and equal citizens; and to nonbelievers: we defend your unqualified liberty to question and dissent.

Before any of us is a member of the Umma, the Body of Christ, or the Chosen People, we are all members of the community of conscience, the people who must choose for themselves.

 

Religious education would simply go underground but a religious education doesn't substitute for financially marketable one. Don't muslims have the opportunity to decide on their own values. I think the message received would be that they live in a state hostile to their personal freedoms. The wider problem is ignorance simply, not a particular form of education.