Morality?

Discussion in 'Agnosticism and Atheism' started by Alsharad, May 22, 2004.

  1. Jedi

    Jedi Self Banned

    Messages:
    2,566
    Likes Received:
    1
    See you just prove my point. You are "superior" to me in your eyes because you think you are more experienced than I . Well, let me tell you, there was once a man, who was in existence before even you or probably your dad or my grandfather was in existence. He began the study of religions when he was only 10 and continued to study religion. He then accepted a guru, studied religion with him and then came to America in 1960s . He was enlightened when he was 80 years old- thats twice your age and He explained to the hippie crazed one side, conservative another side and feminists on the other, what real enlightenment is.

    He was so pure that he did not care for his body which was 80 years old, he did not care he had two heart attacks. He simply depended on the almighty and served his God in the last 12 years of his life.

    He created many temples for his God, He made people come out of ignorance, He converted drug addicts into healthy human beings and he taught a pure way of life. His name is Srila prabhupada and He is much more wiser than you.

    I might not be wise, but the words that are his (some anyway) are definitely the wisest. He was beyond our comprehension, he taught a new logic, a new peaceful and safe approach to life.

    His words are divine in that they are pure. Purity and chastisity and truth are needed to be wise enough to understand religion. You do not need mundane studies made on them, they will be completely useless I am sorry to say.

    You may be knowing the facts, but you do not know the essence of their words, so whats the point of doing a 30 year study or a million year study huh?
     
  2. Razorofoccam

    Razorofoccam Banned

    Messages:
    1,965
    Likes Received:
    1
    Jedi

    It is interesting. Who are "Christ, Shankara, Chaitanya, the sufi saints , Baha u llah, Gandhi, Ramanuja, Vivekananda and many many more" ?

    You define them as 'god realised'
    Yet to occam their wisdom, their 'abillity' to be so god realised.
    And with the buddhist. Not a god as deity.
    Occam might call them 'rational beings' ??
    Your 'god realised' = occam's 'rational being'.

    Occam could say that " imagine if everyone were rational"
    [as our race is NOT]
    That we loved, felt , desired. With compassion and also will.
    But used reason as the way to achieve this.
    Not emotion itself [most of human history]

    Yes..unity/ballance of mind and feeling occam thinks..Is the next step.
    Our world is as it is today. Through 5%reason, that has allowed our technological society, and 95% emotion/desire.

    And that imballance is the problem

    Occam
     
  3. Jedi

    Jedi Self Banned

    Messages:
    2,566
    Likes Received:
    1
    Well said sir!, I totally agree with you. You can call them rational beings or self- realized.. it is the same thing, because God is the most logical person there is.

    With that said, I totally agree with you on the fact that there is too much desire in this world and its true. Most people in today's world are greedy, they cheat others, they want too much power and mostly almost everyone is unhappy and confused. We have to stop it and best way to do it is evolving into rational or God realized beings .
     
  4. StonerBill

    StonerBill Learn

    Messages:
    12,544
    Likes Received:
    1
    waht the fuck? you guys write too much! make a book or something.
     
  5. geckopelli

    geckopelli Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,862
    Likes Received:
    2
    Jedi,

    Don't condem yourself to only dead words from a dead man.

    The world is a living place.

    Is you god dead and/or stagnant?

    The Universe is a ever-evolving thing. Has your god been left in the dust?

    Still, you've never explained your need to present your religion as empirical fact. Can you?
     
  6. Jedi

    Jedi Self Banned

    Messages:
    2,566
    Likes Received:
    1
    Listen , I dont' have to tell you anything, because before i even start explaining you started with "your sages are ignorant" crap. So even before hearing , knowing anything you have this mentality that everything that is something you do not expect is "crap", Go ahead , think what you want, but if people thought the same way like you did, the world would be such a sad hopeless place.
     
  7. geckopelli

    geckopelli Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,862
    Likes Received:
    2
    jedi,

    Ah, but there would be no murder in the name of religion...
    Knowledge would be freely shared...

    And poser christians wouldn't have to hide thier doubts behind False Science.
    ----
    Your lack of conviction is showing.

    Trade your bible in for a copy of Origin of the Spiecies.
     
  8. Razorofoccam

    Razorofoccam Banned

    Messages:
    1,965
    Likes Received:
    1

    Occam realises that that theremay be a god.
    Thus he is 'god realised'

    This is what reason allows.
    Realisation of the 'actual' possibillity.
    'factual'
    On the existence of a god.

    This IS because reality shows indicative evidence to support such.
    No Thing exists...Because we want it to.
    [thus marginalising 98% of all human religion]

    Occam

    That is.. Heaven and hell ar to occam no more real that valhalla.
    But the wisdom of the great theologians is wisdom.
    Who defines a wisdom is irrelevent.
    Be it physicist, philosopher or priest.

    What is wisdom. ?
    That which works to our personal and racial benefit.
    That resolves problems/conflict.
    That leads to happiness.
     
  9. Jedi

    Jedi Self Banned

    Messages:
    2,566
    Likes Received:
    1
    wow, very nicely said. :D ,but another way to look this would be - We have to give up all these things and concentrate on the supreme, then alone can we achieve Him.

    I want to end my time here with that :)
     
  10. Razorofoccam

    Razorofoccam Banned

    Messages:
    1,965
    Likes Received:
    1
    Jedi..
    Occam thinks that there is direction.
    Be that a 'supreme' ,? well who knows.?
    Especially none of us.

    Why do we have reason.?
    Maybe to use it to find 'god'
    Maybe god gave us reason to do JUST THAT.

    And agnosticism, is our current place on the road to doing..JUST THAT.

    If this is your last post on this thread... then well met my friend.

    Occam
     
  11. Maelstrom

    Maelstrom Banned

    Messages:
    2,872
    Likes Received:
    23
    When one understands the archeological viewpoint of how morality instigated itself into society and evolved, one realizes that morality has absolutely nothing to do with theism.

    Morality derives from man's need for survival. It dates back to primitive times. In order for the clan to survive, every member was needed. Therefore, it is was not in the good interest of the clan overall to harm or kill other clan members on a silly whim.
     
  12. jamaican_youth

    jamaican_youth Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,822
    Likes Received:
    7
    It's no different to running. I don't need god to run, or justify running, I simply can run. I don't need god for morality or to justify it, I simply can act with good or ill will towards others.

    They're activities we can do. I can act good to others just as easily as I can run. To say morality isn't real makes as much sense as saying running isn't real. Humans are capable of doing those two things. A lion isn't, a lion is capable of running, but it isn't capable of understanding morality, and hence cannot act morally.

    Morality isn't created, it's understood.

    Another example is health. When you get sick, we don't say 'but what is sick, can sickness and health exist without god?". Remove all life from the universe, does health exist? No, but it begins to exist when beings enter the universe that are capable of being in various states of well being. Health is not a concept, it's a state of being.

    Morality is not a concept, it's an activity.

    Rights are a concept. Because it's something entirely unique to humans that we claim we have for ourselves. But they can't be proved or demonstrated. In fact we've proved they don't exist. When Japanese-Americans had their rights taken away in WW II, we proved they're an illusion, because a right can't be taken away by definition, that makes it a privilege.

    Sport is an illusion. Take someone who has never seen sport before, and display for them the kicking of a ball into a net. It has zero meaning to them. Now kick that person - it has meaning. You both understand (not create, but understand) that you kicked them unnecessarily for the purpose of causing harm, which is what we call 'immoral'.

    No words or discussion is necessary, just brains capable of understanding cause and effect. The ball going into the net means nothing more than a ball going into a net. Saying it's good, or a goal, is the meaning we make up for it.

    We don't make up the meaning of moral and immoral, they're names we apply to what we know.
     
  13. Moonglow181

    Moonglow181 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Messages:
    16,175
    Likes Received:
    4,916
    I think morality is just born out of love and a sense of right and wrong and fairness....and trying to do the right thing whatever that is....
     
  14. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

    Messages:
    27,694
    Likes Received:
    4,465
    this is what forums are for. if you're not interested in ideas for their own sake, what do you seek in them?

    to answer the other question, as i frequently do, the function of morality is the kind of world we all have to live in.

    all of us participate in what each of us individually experience.

    the joy and pain, someone half way around the world, AND ourselves, each experience in our every day lives, each of us also, statistically contribute to creating those conditions which result in that experience. not just for each other OR ourselves, but for each other AND ourselves.

    now there are a couple of different things that are called morality, and preacher book morality is something, sometimes wise sometimes, more times even, nonsensical.
    but the real morality, that is the avoidance of causing suffering and harm. the real kind that nobody asks for, for themselves anyway.
    (and yes some people ask for the play kind and that's their own business. obviously what affects everybody, concerns everybody. and what everybody else does, begins with us because we're each of us part of that same everybody too.)

    so we both affect and are affected by, and so that is the real morality, screwing is fine, but screwing everything up for everyone, well everyone includes us too, no matter how much anyone may attempt to deny that, well that's not fine at all, so that is what real morality is, the avoidance of that.

    and again that doesn't come from any book of any religion, at it certainly doesn't come from any hierarchy nor assertion of authority.
    its simply part of the real universe. how it works that way.
     
  15. AceK

    AceK Scientia Potentia Est

    Messages:
    7,824
    Likes Received:
    958
    if the only reason that you have for being a decent person is that ur afraid God will send you to hell then you are a sorry person indeed.
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

    Messages:
    27,694
    Likes Received:
    4,465
    absolutely true.

    if we fuck up the world everyone else has to live in, we fuck up the same world we have to live in too.
    so we have a reason that is both self respecting and generously considerate of each other at the same time.
    totally whether or not anything else does or does not exist.

    religions were mostly an attempt to get people to see that.
    i don't think its worked very well, but i don't blame people for wanting to try.
     
  17. AceK

    AceK Scientia Potentia Est

    Messages:
    7,824
    Likes Received:
    958
    i tend to believe that morality is born out of the ability of higher organisms to feel or experience empathy ... when we are capable of understanding that other people are just further instances of ourselves and also understand that the effect of some actions taken against us can be either pleasant or unpleasant then we should understand that it would be just as wrong to commit an unpleasant action against another as it is for another to commit it against ourself.
     
  18. heeh2

    heeh2 Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,118
    Likes Received:
    30
    You sound like you know what you're talking about, but godamn man you need some periods. That shit hurt my brain trying to register all that in one chunk.

    You are sort of right. Your "self" is actually the universe.

    Meaning, YOU = everything you have seen, done, eaten, Everything you know about anything = You = the universe.

    You are your experiences by their very definition. You are an assimilation of atoms experiencing circumstances called life, and this "thing" we call feelings which actually appears to be some sort of evolutionary selection filing cabinet.
     
  19. fraggle_rock

    fraggle_rock Member

    Messages:
    1,202
    Likes Received:
    557
    Others have said it, but yes, morality is derived from our instincts and the evolution of our species.
    This is why 'moral' people would gladly squash a bug but abhor the thought of killing another human being-- it's not about preserving life, it's about preserving potential allies.
     
  20. No it's not. It's about the happiness and love others bring us. We try to take care of each other because we're cuddly and caring, as grumpy as that might make some people. But they just need some lovin' too.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice