Money is an organizational tool

we're not talking about going backwards, this is something new and different and is not barter or trade. i'd call it a collective market. if anything you've proved my theories right..." lived for almost 2 years with little to no money granted I didnt stay in one place very long and it was a challenge."...i bet you had no possessions or anything in that time.
you say yourself that money is worth nothing, its a transfer of energy, its really a transfer of human energy, so lets just get rid of the money and the crime and poverty that comes with it, thats what im saying.
just try and picture it now but without the money. when you take that out, you still get the services but without the stress that comes with money.
Yes our entire lives depend on it. how are you going to get a home, or food, or material luxeries, unless you go live in the wild and hunt and kill your food and live in exile from the world which i may have to do.
Without money, but with a market, everything is available to you.
With money in a market, you can only get what you can "afford"

 

And if all you can afford is food and a place to live you will never progress. Never move forward. Such a waste of potential.

I've spent time with very little. Any of you young americans done time in Disneyland? I worked in the Paris version and that's where I picked up a lot of my socialist ideals. Everyone is paid the same - an absolute pittance - but food and accomodation are provided. Life is just so much simpler that way. If Disneyland can benefit by making food free, why can't we go macro and do it on a global scale? Seems strange to learn about socialism from one of the biggest capitalist organisations in the world but if even they can see the benefit of it, the efficiency of it, why can't you (that's just generally directed at anyone who doesn't agree with me and KBlaze)?

I've also spent time on benefits and that's no fun. Not everyone realises it but we do all have an instinct to want to contribute to society - it's natural. The reason not everyone notices it because, whether we would do it or not anyway, we are coerced into working whether the job is beneficial or enjoyable or not. Think of all the work that is done purely for money. I don't mean in order to earn money but to look after money. Accountants, stock brokers, bankers, a lot of lawyers all dedicate their entire lives to looking after money. We all spend time looking for things cheaper, buying insurance, checking our change, checking we haven't been over-charged. It's inefficient and it's wrong.

KBlaze, I totally know what you mean about not being able to think about anything else. I'm getting obsessed. It's just so obviously right, how can anyone not see it?

 

Well, money is just a tool, people make it dangerous to each other. All those advertising games are just a part of one big steal.

 

hahaha i know, bro, i know
fear not, in time this thought will spread
goddamn am i glad someone else knows it, that puts more of my faith into it, puts my faith where it should be, the people, not "systems"

 

what do you mean advertising games?
but speaking of advertising, thats another nusciance that would be gotten rid of.
no more lame coke commercials, no billboards obstructing my view of the sky...
there would be an information channel where people would display products, not forced advertising like on television or radio, no pop-up adds either

 

moving off into a vision of someones utopian society...there has always been crime poverty and generaly not nice persons..always will be, always needs to be, you cant have the yin without the yang..changing human nature..you talk of elimimating freedom and I dont like it...
ah what fredom you say freedom to advetise if you so desire where and how you desire..and as for only gettin what you can afford well do what you wish to afford more if that is your wish.
I for one am not interested in some socialist,utopian type place thing..conflict and such will always exist..

 

well what do you think causes the crime and the poverty?
its putting people in the systems, and partly the people's fault but id say more of the situation. yeah we will always have theivery but have you not been paying attention? do you have any idea how significantly this will decrease it? this gets rid of it as much as possible.
eliminating freedom?
this is enhancing it by a nearly infinite scale.
and im fine with advertising and what not, but here in the u.s. it is really excessive and i find it annoying; if it were for quality and not money-profit, it wouldnt have to be everywhere as much as it is now.
eliminating freedom, i just have no idea how you got that out of this.
thats fine if youre not interested, you can just let the world have problems and not do anything about it, thats fine with me.
in this system i describe you can live as YOU choose.
but if you dont want to do that and instead depend on a job and obey a government thats, well ill flat out say it, that sounds pretty fucking stupid.
do you even realize you are alive?
yeah conflict will always exist, but this makes the conflict worth it, not over some stupid bullshit like money.
this plan weakens evil and strenthens good as much as will ever be possible.
it does so by taking out the places where evil can grow, which leaves more room for personal freedom, which leads to happiness, which leads to overall less evil.
this is not changing human nature.
human nature is what YOU make it.
this is taking advantage of human nature.
eliminating freedom ahahahaha yeah
not having a government, all materieal items available to all, no forced schooling, you live as you feel which will lead you your natural creative urge that will give back and keep us going.
yeah thats eliminating freedom alright

no hostilities man im upset with myself for not making it clear enough

 

crime and poverty are caused by desire which is human nature...."but speaking of advertising, thats another nusciance that would be gotten rid of." your statement...eliminating anything I cant get behind..and who is too decide whats quality and whats is not ...one mans trash is another mans treasure..right here right now I live as i choose Ive been out of the mainstream for quite sometime..I work when I want how I want and I make a decent living I lack nothing I desire..there is no such thing as forced schooling if you dont like the way your children are being taught home school them.. unfortunately as a population grows a system of government is needed and I dont subscribe to any socialist or communist ideals..( notice the unfortunatley by government)

 

this isnt socialist or communist,
yeah the advertising is a side note, the one mans trash analogy is pretty good there, here in the states though things like cellphone commercials where everyones screaming about their bill and shit is so obnoxious, but thats not a huge problem.
so desire causes the problem?
its not the manmade construct, currency, its humans? dont blame yourself. thats backwards logic. the system perverts desire. the system forces the mind of man to give birth to selfish urges that bring crime.
in this system desire can be fully utilized and obtained.
and it sounds like youre having a lot of fun in the tropics, wouldnt you want all others to be able to live as leisurely? think beyond your own situation, not all of us can move to a nice island and forget about the rest of the world.
and what i meant by forced schooling is, if you want money, money you need to buy your things and live, you have to get a good job. if you want a good job, you have to have a degree, which you can only get from school. so in a sense it is forced unless you want to work at mcdonalds.

 

and please keep in mind, this isn't MY utopian view, I would think this is more of a natural way of life where the mind is not dependent on concepts. concepts, gov, money, that have always been fake. money is just paper, it has no value. setimental value is the only true value.
anyway, it's not MY world i want you to live in, i see this as an unbiased world where everyone is free to live and worship as they choose.

 

its wonderful you get by wherever youre at, but i would someday like to be able to travel the planet i was born on without worrying if some "countries" "laws" would affect me, or worrying about converting money. most people just stay where they are their entire lives because of these type of restrictions. i think thats pretty sad, and here's how i think it could be fixed.

 

Ah! Everything is moving so fast I better just shoot out my questions as I think of them.

Alright... First thing that came to mind: I'm still not down with the whole anarchy situation. I think you need someone to protect rights. You say that there would be no criminals without money, but I have to disagree. Money and greed is indeed a large motive for I would say 90% of all thievery. Murder, on the other hand, is quite different. Rape is completely different.

How would we deal with those criminals that we would still have: rapists, murderers, etc. And people who commit mala en se crimes (real crimes, not crimes that are so because the government says they are)? So what if John Doe gets a little horny one day and sees your 12 year old daughter walking alone and rapes her? She can identify this person as one of your neighbors, knows exactlly who he is and can explain the situation perfectly. What are you, the father, going to do about it? Let this asshole get away with it? Just forget about it and let the rapist go out and get some more? Something doesn't sit right with me about that. I think we need some form of government to compensate victims of these sorts of crimes or there will be chaos.

I agree with you that there is not enough freedom today. We definitely have a mommy government right now. But taking away the whole thing is not a good idea in my opinion. We do need an entity to protect our rights. I'm a strong believer in the "You are free to do whatever you wish as long as you do not come in the way of anyone elses rights" rule. All I ask for is a court system that will compensate the victims whose rights have been intruded on. The right to live and do so freely without harm from others. The right to life, liberty, and property. That's mainly why I ask for in a government and all I ask for in a government (that and a militia which may not be needed in this society). To me, as long as we keep the laws to restricting crimes against man we should not have a problem. I think we all know what those crimes are and it won't take a legislature to figure it out, just someone to write out what they are. Hell, we wouldn't even need to write them out. We could just have a court system with a jury, and the jury can decide whether a person has commited a crime against another (there are would be no 'victimless crime' bullshit to worry about).

Next topic: Scarcity. There is scarcity. Scarcity is the reason we have poverty. there just is not enough raw material to produce enough for everyone's wants and needs. I'm sure if we could get everything for free, people would be grabbing as much stuff as they could. I'd have someone build me a huge house and then get a whole bunch of stuff to put in it at the market. But the fact is, if everyone did that, eventually we'd run out of supplies. How would we deal with scarcity without putting limits on consumption (which is an oppresive thing to do and the opposite of freedom)

Those were the two big things on my mind. Wow, I'm loving this discussion. I haven't thought this deep in a while.

 

couple o things..I dont live on an Island although close its a peninsula..I dont have a degree or a job per se,yet I do work as I said when where and how I desire..and I dont believe you need a degree to get work even good work BUT you need passion,desire and forsight, I know quite a few people with degrees that work shit jobs and people without degrees that love their work..and kblaze being that you are an american you are free to travel just about anywhere in the world what laws hold you back?? if youre talking of Cuba its pretty damn easy to get there without much hassle or worry thousands do it legally and illeagally..EDJ scarcity yes this is one reason we have poverty HOWEVER I believe there is more than enough everything in this world to provide for all some are just to lazy to do whats necessary to get it and then there are those that are on some power trip and wish to withhold from others..our government actually pays farmers not to grow stuff is just one example,and yes its far more complex .

 

Hahaaa, we are winning you over aren't we Ed? The picture I have of how this would work is in constant flux as I discuss the whole concept and this is indeed a good work out.

The question about crime I think you answered pretty well, though I have to admit it's a question that bothers me from time to time. I agree that certain institutions would have to be kept, at least to a certain degree. I read a book quite recently called 'the Dispossessed' by Ursula le Guin (I recommend that book very strongly, especially to you KBlaze, she's from the bay area so perhaps you picked up on her vibes?). I'd had these ideas storming round my head for some time and reading that book was the first glimmer that I was not alone. One thing that bothered me, however, was the way crimes (male en se ones) were dealt with, ie by the people that were wronged. I think this would be extremely dangerous and in many situations would lead to escalating feuds. But, like you say EdJ, all we need is a debate and a jury - far more sensible. I think the person/people handing out the sentances should be allowed to think creatively rather than handing out fines and prison sentances. Perhaps criminals should be sent to work in the sewers or other unpleasant work? Or made to help out the victim in some way depending on the crime? I think community opinion would be a strong motivation against commiting crimes and would be a punishment in itself. I think it would be important (and far easier) for everyone to have something to do, somewhere they felt they fit, cos most of society's 'evil in themselves' crimes are commited by malcontents. I truly think there would be far fewer malcontents, both the obvious failures and those who are ostensibly succesful but get no real job satisfaction.

Wrat, I don't mean to sound dismissive, but living where you do, you don't have a clue how we're living (I'm sure the opposite is true as well). In the rich man's world, money is god. You simply don't get hired for casual work - you have to show commitment and stick at a job for a long time. If you don't, future employers see that you haven't and they wonder why. With their bosses breathing down their neck they will simply not offer you work - partly because it costs money to hire people (the interviewer is payed several times more than the people they're hiring), partly because even if you do have good references it's illegal to give a bad reference so what's the point of good ones? Partly because it's so hard to fire anyone but essentially, we aren't all as free as you seem to be.

I don't know about the states but coming from Britain it's true you can travel just about anywhere in the world but working is a different story, and it also causes problems when you come back.

Back to EdJ. Food, I hope you'll agree is not scarce and obviously there is enough wood and rock to build houses. Thing is, if you're living in a neighbourhood where everyone has a modest house, how are you going to convince anyone to build you a huge big luxurious mansion. They just won't do it. If you want to build that house yourself feel free, you can, but if, once you've finished building it, there are people from the community (who have been providing you with food and whatever else the whole time you've been building your house) living in crappy leaky houses or in tents or whatever, wouldn't you offer them a room, or use the skills you've gained in building your house to enrich the lives of those around you (fixing their leaks, building new houses).

Truly, human nature is not as bad as people think. When I have this argument with people they say, like you just did Ed, "I would exploit it", but when there is no money, true exploitation really is quite hard to achieve. That saying: "That which does not kill you makes you stronger." It's not just about hardships, it's just about living life, good and bad.

Oh yeah, wrat, Yin and Yang can exist in an extremely good world. Good and Evil is one thing to which they are not analogous. What this will do will free the blockages, allow both seeds to grow, allow the energy to flow.

Peace Guys, this is fun!

 

Good point there. I was actually thinking about the "exploitation" example I used earlier and came to the same conclusion...Nobody is going to build a mansion if there are no mansions around... I'll post back if I think of anything else. Great discussion though.

 

Please explain how where I live has anything to do with having a clue

 

Just that employers where you live are not quite the slaves to money that employers in the first world are. What I said after the bit you quoted is a description of how life is here. If you work casually you cannot afford to live, you have to sell your soul and commit to a job. Your description of your life sounds very different, a lot more free. I'm happy for you but I want to change things for me.

 

Just where do you assume I live?? Im right here baby good ol america

 

I'm sorry. sub-tropics, I assumed that meant... well... somewhere else.

So what do you do? How did you get to live like this? I'm envious.

 

a lot of soul searching and effort not exactly what you wanted to hear..well I spent 2 years living on the street and I learned how to live with nothing..then I decided to work as much as possible so I got 2 full time and one partime jobs and immersed myself in debt culture.then I tried some college then I took the risk that was needed and decided I was not cut out for the 9to5 and went into buisness for myself and since I already learned how to live with nothing I just made work ( short easy condensed version)...please dont be envious that is part of the human nature I was speaking of before..anyone can do it it may be scary/risky but it can be done..this world has an abundance of everything if you know how and where to look anything is possible