Men and women being “equal”

Discussion in 'Politics' started by WomenPower, Mar 26, 2021.

  1. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Women

    Well i did ask you some questions that you didn’t answer which might help if you did answer.

    Not sure what you mean?

    What is your definition of equality - to me it’s about in law and pay and treatment?

    In what way do you think men and women should be treated unequally?

    Again you would need to expand on this – I think men and women should get the same rates of pay for playing the same sports for example why are you opposed to that?
     
  2. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Women

    Slavery and women voting came up in relation to what people view as been fair or not and how that can effect what someone sees as fair and unfair going forward

    Not everyone learns the lessons of the past or even wants to.

    As i’ve stated people had to fight to get equal rights because while some people thought things were unfair there were those that didn’t.

    There is social and political unfairness going on today that some people don’t wish to acknowledge or don’t wish to change.

    Why don’t you feel equal to your husband or want to be? I mean do you feel inferior to your husband? On balance you think he is more important than you? Or are you saying you feel superior to your husband?

    My wife is my partner - we might do different things and have individual talents but i don’t see her as less equal and she doesn’t feel i’m superior, as you seem to be saying with your husband.

    Why wouldn’t a woman deserve the job if she was qualified for it? Are you implying you think men are more deserving?

    So even though you might not take more days off per year than the men you’d except less pay because you believe other women do?

    Also I went looking and found this comment on such a surveys -

    Although women were absent from work more frequently, it appears that men take longer stints of absence. On average, women take 14 days of sick leave per year while men typically took 16 days. Experts are predicting that women are more likely to throw a sickie not for themselves, but on behalf of their children. If kids are ill or sent home from school, mothers are thought to be more likely to take time off to care for children work than fathers.

    It has also been calculated that while women have increasingly entered into the workplace they still end up doing the majority of the unpaid work such as housework, childcare and care for older people.

    So according to the World Economic Forum women work on average 39 more days a year than men.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2021
  3. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Trudge

    Sorry we have been through this at length - why do you repeat stuff you couldn’t defend the last few times you said it?

    To repeat you cannot have equality of opportunity in an unequal system -

    Imagine a 100 metre race and two runners of equal potential - but you only place one runner at the 100 metre line while putting the other on the 300 metre line. There is no equality of opportunity in the race.

    Would it not be fairer to treat the two runners equally and allow each to begin on the 100 metre line? Is that giving the disadvantaged runner better treatment or fairer treatment?

    Social and economic disadvantage can be connected to many things sometimes it is connected to race and gender or other biases and prejudices sometimes not.

    The thing is that societies are artificial entities that can be built and managed to bring about certain outcomes if the desire is for a fairer and more equal society that is possible to bring about

    But that is a bit like standing at the finish line of the race described above and declaring that the runner that was advantaged from the start was the more worthy athlete (who was smarter and had made better choices) while lambasting the loser for not working hard enough (been dumb and making bad choices).

    It doesn’t make sense and such an unfair and unequal race is much more likely to disincentivise disadvantaged people when they realise it is so stacked against them. .
     
  4. wrat1

    wrat1 Members

    NOT even close to what I stated, rarely do 2 people get HIRED the same day and perform the same, be it man or women
     
  5. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Wrat1

    So what is your point?

    I’ll ask again - if consistently the bobs in the company are getting paid more than the bobettes for doing the same job and for the same outcome is that fair?
     
  6. wrat1

    wrat1 Members

    why is it happening? were they all hired the same day? is the work the exact same? what is fair? who decides?
     
  7. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Wrat1

    Again what is your point in the context of this thread?

    Why is being hired the same day important if it is for the same job?

    In this scenario yes the work is exact same(the equivalent)

    The employer decides the rates of pay for the grades of employees according to the regulations and laws in place.

    But my question is if consistently the bobs in the company are getting paid more than the bobettes for doing the same job and for the same outcome but that is allowed by the regulations in place - is that fair - so in the context of the thread should the regulations be changed to bring about more equality?
     
  8. soulcompromise

    soulcompromise Member HipForums Supporter

    As I stated in my previous dissertation, the gender roles in our culture (assuming everyone can agree that there are in fact such a thing as gender roles; :rolleyes:) are maligned for women in business and politics; though the latter has received more attention of late, there still exists a prevailing situation in so far as equality; particularly for women in traditional business roles.

    Typically, the expectation/limitation is that women are saddled with burdens of reception or human resources, not given executive authority, and not awarded the same compensation as their male contemporaries.

    Here is a chart from Pew research; a reputable source. It discusses more than one marginalized group, but if you look at the data it's clear that women across the board make thousands less than men in all groups.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. wrat1

    wrat1 Members

    Point being that things are not as simple as do you think such and such is fair.

    perhaps my "same day" wording was not as clear as I could have been , surely you know that length of time of employment is a merit that deserves higher pay.

    aside from minimum wage there are no laws in place regarding pay

    Is there gender pay disparity, YES, is it righteous NO .

    Righteous | Definition of Righteous by Merriam-Webster (merriam-webster.com)
    3:slang : GENUINE, EXCELLENT
     
  10. Flagme15

    Flagme15 Members

    One area, in the work environment, where men, and women are equal is when it comes to management. Both sexes are power hungry, and being so, makes for poor managerial skills.
     
    wrat1 likes this.
  11. WomenPower

    WomenPower Members

    I’m just going to say as a woman I don’t have a problem being paid less than my counterpart..I don’t put my value purely on money.
     
    TrudginAcrossTheTundra and wrat1 like this.
  12. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Wrat1
    So your point is that you find it difficult to know if something is fair or not - is that why you have been finding it difficult to say you think slavery as unfair?

    But then you go on to say that you think gender pay disparity is not ‘righteous’ (meaning of righteous being ‘morally right or justifiable’) so you seem to be saying that you think gender pay disparity is NOT morally right or justifiable.

    So you clearly and simply think it unfair

    Honestly why didn’t you just say from the beginning that you thought pay disparity based on gender or race is unfair?

    What has been your point in seeming to be against equality of pay for people doing the same job when all along you agreed with it?
     
  13. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Women

    And I'd ask why you think that?

    Honestly it would be helpful to us all if you actually answered the questions put to you rather than constantly ignoring them in favour of these rather empty statements.
     
  14. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    I’m sorry you’ve had such bad experiences - I’ve had male and female managers and some have been good, others middling and some bad ones.

    It is usually a reflection of the society, company, business or enterprise, in my experience a bad ethos or leadership promotes or hires bad managers.

    If you have a society or business model based on exploitation rather than mutual benefit then you get bad management (in business and in government).

    In a system with an exploitative ethos politicians are more likely to serve their own interests and those of their donors rather than the people in general and in businesses it is likely to bring about a management style based on gaining power and getting up the greasy pole rather than doing what is best for the workers.

    So you get companies where workers are too frightened to go to the toilet and governments that go for tax cuts that favour wealth and societal cuts that are detrimental to everyone else.
     
  15. wrat1

    wrat1 Members


    Absolutely amazing when I chose a word for a reason AND posted the definition in the context I used it in and you chose to interpret it how you want
     
  16. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Wrat1

    Once again you are not answering the questions put to you or addressing the criticisms of your views.

    As to your choice of the slang definition of Righteous - i’m sorry but it didn’t seem to make sense while the none slang definitions - morally right or justifiable - did fit - and i didn’t ‘interpret’ i just used your own dictionary.

    Definition of righteous
    1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin

    2a : morally right or justifiable a righteous decision

    b : arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality righteous indignation

    3 slang : genuine, excellent

    *

    I mean think about it this is your statement

    Is there gender pay disparity, YES, is it genuine or excellent NO .

    Is there gender pay disparity, YES, is it morally right or justifiable NO .

    Which seems the clearer sentence?

    I mean what is not genuine - there is gender pay disparity but it isn’t genuine (isn’t real, is fake)?

    Which implies the contradiction that you both think it does exist and doesn’t exist

    But that would also seem to conflict with - there is gender pay disparity but it isn’t excellent (not good)?

    Sorry if this were an English test you would not be getting high marks
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021 at 2:25 AM
  17. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Wrat1

    Sorry but you seem to be trying to score points and sow confusion rather than enter into honest debate - as said it would be a lot more honest to just answer the questions put to you rather than waste all this time on this semantic BS, that seems to be more about muddying the water than seeking insight.
     
  18. soulcompromise

    soulcompromise Member HipForums Supporter

  19. soulcompromise

    soulcompromise Member HipForums Supporter

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Wow. That's not very convenient.
     
  20. wrat1

    wrat1 Members

    My first post in this thread was a dictionary definition to clarify
    then I backed it up with a philosophical explanation as to why equality is not so easy to define or attain

    you choose to "muddy" it up and steer the discussion the way you wish it it to go
     

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