Masculist wanting to talk to gays

Discussion in 'Gay' started by wiggly, May 18, 2004.

  1. wiggly

    wiggly Member

    Hello peeps.

    I'm a masculist, think 'feminist' with testicles and a GENUINE belief in sexual equality. I've popped in here to attempt to talk to some gays, male ones.

    The primary question I'd like to ask, is do you feel yourself discriminated as a gay, period. Or discriminated against as a gay AND as a man?

    How do you feel about the anti-male ethos of society today?

    Are you even aware of it?

    W.
     
  2. Professor Jumbo

    Professor Jumbo Mr. Smarty Pants

    Well, I'm asexual more or less. I know that is very different from gay, but folks often associate it gay anyhow. I have never felt especially discrimanted against, but then there aren't all that many asexual folks around, and very few people if any feel threatened by asexuality, especially once it is explained to them that it is different from gay.

    I have never felt really discriminated against as a man either, though there is a certain exception. Jobs, yup jobs. I am quite a good typist, (might not come though here as I generally don't spell and grammer check my posts all that throughly) have had good experience as a file clerk (all of it in college on federal work/study). I would make a much better typist/file clerk/ admin. asst. than many women who hold such positions. I hate doing that kind of work, it sucks, but I am good at it and often have needed a job regardless. However, males very rarely get hired for such positions. More than once I have been beaten out by women who could barely spell, much less type and file things.

    Anti-male ethos can be found of course, e.g., the Lifetime TV network, the Oprah show, the Rosie O'Donnel show. However, that there is this anti-male ethos in society at large is an assumption yet to be proven. In fact, apart from a few TV shows and tabloid rags there is no evidence at all to suggest general anti-male ethos.

    Cute really, that's about it. This question proves nothing, nor does it lend weight to any argument. It is literally a rehtorical question, that is to say one that is pure rehtoric, absurd rehtoric at that. For example of its absurdity I offer other such questions. Are you aware that cannibal bananas are invading Greenland? Are you aware that the Bavarian Illuminati really are controlling the world? Are you aware that the Space Aliens have replaced Al Gore with a cyborg clone?

    I'm not trying to be flippant or rude here. Such a question unsupported must be seen as absurd. You will need to provide some argument here.

    What exactly is a masculist? I have used the term myself as a theoretical male version of feminism in various discussions in the past, yet my use of it then was always soley for the purposes stated above; there were no specifics to it.

    You mentioned a "Masculist meme" book that you wrote. You say 1mb, could you e-mail it to me as a word document attachement?
     
  3. Samhain

    Samhain Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    if this isn't a rude request i was just wondering whether you could talk a bit more about what being an asexual is as i'm interested. maybe you could p.m me if you want.

    i am a very fem acting male so i don't really feel like i relate to the original message much i believe that men and women should have equal standing in society- but i don't think we've got there yet

    s
     
  4. backtothelab

    backtothelab Senior Member

    i feel descriminated as a white male, if that counts for anything
     
  5. wiggly

    wiggly Member

    "You say 1mb, could you e-mail it to me as a word document attachement?"

    I can send it as a pdf file, not as Word. Word files can be changed too easily and I have experience of my words being taken out of context or worse, altered and passed of as my own. As the book is specifically designed to be passed around, ie outside of my control, I insist it be in pdf where it can be checked as original or not.

    The Adobe portable document reader is available all over the web for free.

    As I mentioned my questions are straightforward, as such I don't wish to delve deeply into the issues. You answered my question ('are you aware of it?') by questioning the question.

    I'll respond simply - if I were to call you 'macho', is that a compliment or an insult?

    To the chap that responded you feel discriminated against as a white male, yep, that counts for a great deal.

    Later I also intend having a bash at contacting members of the black community and doing the same thing, asking if they feel discriminated against as just black, or as black MEN. Racism is often steeped in sexism, including the reverse racism we see today.

    This is a HUGE subject, which is why I wrote a book on it, it is also a rarely talked about or understood subject, which is why I have crammed 16Mb of notes into a single floppy disk, as few people would have the curiousity to read a 1000 page tome.

    It's tricky to discuss the subject without discussing the issues, in my book I have control and simply skirt them but in a discussion it's harder to remove the issues. Each individual issue however could have a small book on it's own.

    One issue I will touch on is domestic violence. As a gay male you actually have more protection against domestic violence (DV) than a straight guy. A straight guy cannot hit back without huge social sanction and even if attacked, even killed, in his sleep will have the obstacle of gender bias against him. For example one woman who burned her husband to death by pouring fuel on him whilst he was asleep had her life conviction over-turned by Cherie Blair, who gave her a medal for bravery. That the man had complained to police previously about her attacks, including with a hot iron, was ignored, it was domestic violence therefore the male has to be the perp, the woman the victim, even when the 'perp' is dead.

    In reality DV is pretty gender neutral, both sexes engage in it and around half is mutual brawling but as I say I don't want to delve too deeply into the issues. what does interest me is how do you feel that as a male you cannot realistically call yourself a victim of domestic violence? You may well BE one but how do you feel about it not being recognised? Actually this affects gay women possibly more than gay men, perhaps not the best issue to touch on for this discussion (though it's a serious issue).

    Take another example, as a gay you're likely to face a lot of discrimination if you want to work with children, as do all men today which is a major reason so few men do. How do you feel though, do you think the discrimination would be simply because you're gay or because you're a gay MALE?

    I'll leave it there for as I say I am mainly interested in your responses rather than imparting my views.

    W.
     
  6. wiggly

    wiggly Member

    I'm sorry, I forgot to answer the question:

    "What exactly is a masculist?"

    A definition can be found here:

    http://www.mens-network.org/masculism.html

    I'll paste the bit that applies to me:

    There exists an alternate view of masculism (Note, this definition is from a freely editable encyclopedia, I would not describe this as alternative, this is the mainstream) as a complementary movement to feminism. In this viewpoint, both feminism and masculism are attempts to correct disadvantages induced by gender roles -- feminism addresses areas where women are (seen to be) disadvantaged (e.g., pay and promotion) while masculism addresses areas where men are (seen to be) disadvantaged (e.g., criminal prosecution and sentencing). Masculists with this view may object to specific aspects of feminism, or to the expressed views of specific self-defined feminist groups, but do not reject feminism as a concept, or believe that the feminist movement as a whole is inimical to masculism. For example, Warren Farrell states in The Myth of Male Power that both sexes are hampered by gender roles of the past. On his Web page (http://www.warrenfarrell.com ), he further expands on this compatibility: "I use two podiums: Dr. Farrell, Masculist; and Dr. Farrell, Feminist." Another example is found in Fred Hayward's speech to the National Congress for Men in 1981: "We must not reverse the women's movement; we must accelerate it... [Men's liberation] is not a backlash, for there is nothing about traditional sex roles that I want to go back to..."

    Masculists on the whole ARE anti-feminist groups/movements, not the concept. The people and their methods we disagree with, along with their assertions and warped figures, the concept we do not.

    W.
     
  7. Duncan

    Duncan Senior Member

    I've read the writing. I'm not a psychologist, but have studied about a half dozen courses in the discipline. I'm also not a political scientist, but consider myself an informed voter for the past 27 years.

    I don't buy into any of the rhetoric in the argument. I feel it is unfounded, is being used as a method to subvert the women's causes and is using a divide-and-conquer wedge that puts and/or pits us against one another.

    I take personal exception to a group that tries to soft soap me into its confidence by taking interest in me as a gay male. I don't really care to share my opinion with some organization's members who are interested in my opinion to bolster its own agenda. In this respect, I must say that I am a separatist and elitist. In other words, I don't want the MASCULISTS using me or my opinion to gather information to further their cause.

    I guess that makes me MASCULISTphobic. Think Germany, 1939, with a pink triangle pinned to a spot just below your shoulder.
     
  8. Professor Jumbo

    Professor Jumbo Mr. Smarty Pants

    You don't wish to delve deeply into the issues!? Why in the world are you writting all of this, why have you written books on the subject? In fact, how have you written books on the subject if you don't wish to delve deeply into the issues?
    Straightforward perhaps, but certainly not clear or well thought out, at least in the case of this one and the one about being aware of "anti-male ethos" in society today.
    'Macho' is a term both general and very broad. Whether or not I take it as an insult or a compliment would depend upon the attitude of the person calling me macho. If Betty Freidan called me macho I would be rather upset by it. If R. Lee Ermy called me macho I would take it as a compliment. If you called me macho I would ask you what you think "macho" means, since at the moment I have no idea what your attitude towards "macho" is.

    What then are we to respond to?
     
  9. scrap_rat

    scrap_rat Member

    "Second question, bearing in mind the homophobic tendencies of a lot of us
    masculists, do you think you could ever work alongside masculists to improve things for men as a gender, rather than just gays as gays?"

    Personally I am too busy trying to improve things for human beings as a species.
     
  10. seppuku

    seppuku Member

    you cant be asexual. isnt asexual reproduction like wht plants go through? it means only one parent
     
  11. Professor Jumbo

    Professor Jumbo Mr. Smarty Pants

    I didn't say that I have reproduced asexually you doofus. And no, plants do not reproduce asexually.
     
  12. meishka

    meishka Grease Munky

    yea it's worms an snails you moron. jk lol
     
  13. monosphere

    monosphere Holly's Hubby

    to be fair and truthful, there are some forms of plants that do reproduce asexually. I don't remember which ones, but I do remember that much from my old biology class. And to think that I'd never have a use for such information.
     
  14. Duncan

    Duncan Senior Member

  15. Professor Jumbo

    Professor Jumbo Mr. Smarty Pants

    Hey, quit tarein' me down. I thought I was so right on about the plants not reproducing asexually. Crapola!:p
     
  16. wiggly

    wiggly Member

    "..would depend upon the attitude of the person calling me macho"

    Why?

    "how can you write a book without issues?"

    Easy, write a book about a different issue, one which affects the others but is not the issue at hand.

    For example I could write about computer viruses. I wouldn't be discussing any specific virus, it's effects, how to get rid of it and so on, simply about the subject as a whole.

    Anyway, I only popped back in here because the site came up on a search, I shall leave you people in peace.


    regards

    W.

    PS Duncan said: "I've read the writing", I'm presuming he meant writing in general rather than the book, for his comments make no sense whatsover in context of that book. It's now published and for sale BTW, though if anyone sends me a PM I can provide a link of a free download of an early draft.
     
  17. Duncan

    Duncan Senior Member

    Wiggly came in May and left in August. I still was blown away by the post and wonder what that whole masculist thing was all about !
     
  18. If you are unfamiliar with what masculism is or its basis, please see the blog <a href="http://masculism.blogspot.com">masculism.blogspot.com</a>.

    "The primary question I'd like to ask, is do you feel yourself discriminated as a gay, period. Or discriminated against as a gay AND as a man?"

    I get the impression that male homosexuality provokes a feeling of great unease among straight women, and a simpler feeling of contempt and neglect by straight men. It's considered disgusting and aberrent partly because of the conformist/heterosexist disposition of the Abrahamic religions and partly because of the aggressive freakishness of the gay fringe - the leather daddies and drag queens on the floats, the Dykes on Bikes brigade, etc.

    Discrimination exists everywhere for everyone, since we all have our own subjective preferences that condition our choices and filter our perceptions. Bias is a major problem in scientific endeavor, even, which is arguably the most objective occupation known, and requires very careful and complicated experimental architecture to circumvent (double blind trials, etc.).

    As a white male, I feel that among certain male peers, I'm compelled to watch football and know things about downs and innings and chortle when comments about "hot babes" are uttered. If I don't, it creates unease. Among female peers, I find greater tolerance for noncompliance but also a supposition of sexual tension, as if I am an aggressor/initiator/subject and she is the receiver/cooperator/object. This isn't always true, but the social supposition is strong enough that it seems females either buy into it or militantly oppose it - going too far either way, I suppose. The idea of getting to know a male as an individual seems to be abhorrent to either sex.

    "How do you feel about the anti-male ethos of society today?"

    From our arch-feminist media to our educational system, hiring quotas and diversity programs, the only real target for "deconstruction" remains white males. Yet, though a few among our ultra-elite remain in control of the world, the vast majority of us are the fastest-sinking demographic in America. We're being impoverished by divorce, ignored by employers and peers, denied visitation rights for our children, ignored or marginalized by teachers and potential mentors and denied equal access to research funding for our illnesses. See <a href="http://masculism.blogspot.com">masculism.blogspot.com</a> for more details on these claims often viewed as "dubious" by the overwhelming majority of people who have never heard such facts.

    "I'll respond simply - if I were to call you 'macho', is that a compliment or an insult?"

    Neither. I think our society is individualistic enough that something that seems to apply in a vaguely Latin sense of "machismo" doesn't have much bearing. It's almost toothless, since even if you are macho, you haven't been able to legally or "appropriately" act on it since about 1985.

    "what does interest me is how do you feel that as a male you cannot realistically call yourself a victim of domestic violence?"

    It's a huge incentive to develop romantic relationships with men instead of women. The vast majority of men - of all races - in America are totally unaware of how much they risk by living with or even associating with women. They now have the power to imprison us by fiat, with a simple baseless accusation. And huge numbers of men remain imprisoned even when no substantive evidence is found against them.

    "Take another example, as a gay you're likely to face a lot of discrimination if you want to work with children, as do all men today which is a major reason so few men do. How do you feel though, do you think the discrimination would be simply because you're gay or because you're a gay MALE?"

    I personally have no desire to work with children, so I'm not the best person to answer this. But from my impression of male friends and peers working with children, the discrimination in this case is more due to gender than sexual preference.

    "Fred Hayward's speech to the National Congress for Men in 1981: 'We must not reverse the women's movement; we must accelerate it... [Men's liberation] is not a backlash, for there is nothing about traditional sex roles that I want to go back to...'"

    That's Fred's personal opinion. Sad that he was so hesitant to universalize his case. I'll do that for him. We're at the point now where there's at least two generations of uphill struggle for men - who refuse to band together these days - to do before we can return to the pre-feminist era. Feminism is here to stay and men aren't equipped or motivated to do anything about it. Our only choice is to pick up from the present point, not to look back - and think about what we must do as a gender to live happy, functional, contributory and civilized lives. The best beginning option I've seen so far is the Marriage Strike. Beyond that, we men are going to have to get over our homophobia and adopt a more Greco-Roman perspective on gender. For some reason we continue to operate on the Medieval concept of chivalry, as if women are a weaker sex to be protected by our lives. That hasn't been the case since the 1920s, yet the vast majority of men live their lives as if it is. Why is that?

    "Second question, bearing in mind the homophobic tendencies of a lot of us
    masculists, do you think you could ever work alongside masculists to improve things for men as a gender, rather than just gays as gays?"

    Homophobic men seem to be more comfortable working with gay men who don't exhibit feminine characteristics. The more vocal gays tend to be "flamers". But there are plenty of us - unmarked legions, even - who exhibit no obviously gender-bending characteristics.
     
  19. SelfControl

    SelfControl Boned.

    I'm aware of it, but I also think it's grossly over-stated. It's more that guys are encouraged to be more tolerant of women than women are of men. It's noticeable.

    That said, I'm one of those people who believes in equality rather than equivalents.
     

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