Make Mine A Karma Koffee - Phoenix Karma

Descartes and scepticism would probably be a good place to start with this. Cogito ergo sum, I am thinking therefore I am, reducing the concept of self down to doubt and then building up from there. Of course Descartes takes huge leaps to reason the existance of god from this, and I'm not in the business of questioning whether or not a table exists. It exists. I find the fluffy side of philosophy incredibly tiresome. Nevertheless, our ability to reason, to question, even doubt ourselves, stands to me as a strong foundation of our concept of self. What sets our concept of self so far apart from most other animals, however, I would say is our awareness of our own mortality and its connotations. Most animals will have a sense of self-preservation and an inbuilt fight or flight mechanism, but it is only humans that have extended it to such a degree that we wonder what happens after death, that we fear it so much that we must invent for ourselves post-death fantasies, that we can know, to a reasonable degree, how long our lives will be and that we must achieve something meaningful within that time. "Life is slow dying" wrote Phillip Larkin. "I am thinking, therefore I am" wrote Descartes. "I think I'm dying, therefore I am" wrote I and that is my understanding of the basis of the human concept of self....

 

How do you know this?
Im not saying youre wrong (obviously! I think you expressed your answer really well and raised some good points), im just really curious about this stuff, its good to ponder
How do you know that other animals do not wonder about life after death? And if they do not, how do you know it is not because they know already and so have no fear?
Do you not believe other animals wish to achieve something meaningful in their time?
And about knowing how long our lives will be...Growing up i had a terrier dog living with me...and about a year before she died, she was remarkably more affectionate to us all...2 weeks before she died shed follow my mum around non-stop, she refused to leave her side...
The day she went...my mum had gone to the shops and it was obvious to me at home she was going. Her breathing was so rapid, it was a heart attack or something like that...But instead of going to her bed or anything like that, she walked out into the garden and lay by the gate...and i tell you, she hung on. She hung on until the minute my mum was home and held her in her arms. She went immediately then
Im not saying this was knowledge in the way we humans know of course, and i highly doubt it was...i have no idea what precisely her thought processes were...But im curious to know if you have more ideas about these things

I could go on about this all day, but heh it already looks like im making a take-over bid And im talking rubbish because im exhausted

 

Oh, and sorry if i knocked the thread off-track Ill think of a question when ive slept

 

Do you feel imagination is more important than knowledge?

 

I think it would be fair to say that no animal has a concept of mortality as developed as humans have. However, I did add the caveat 'most' rather than 'all', because you're right, I don't know, I can only hypothesise based on available evidence. There will always be anecdotal evidence in limited cases, though what meaning we choose to read into it will be highly subjective. When my dog died, she found herself unable to walk or move and was highly surprised and frustrated by it all and, I believe, didn't know what was happening to her at all. What can be determined scientifically is that different animals have different levels of sentience and self awareness. Dogs, certain breeds in particular, are remarkably intelligent and socialised animals and there is considerable evidence to suggest they demonstrate caring behaviour, for example. One measure of sentience scientists have devised is to test when an animal looks at a mirror, whether it realises that it is looking at its own reflection, or another animal. Dogs are persistent failers of this test, but pigs have been shown to have a level of sentience to recognise their own reflections. Dolphins too, I would imagine, have a high level of self awareness. It would be human arrogance to assume, as we did in the past, that no other animal was truly sentient. But do I think most animals want to achieve something meaningful in their lives because of an awareness of their limited time? No, I would have to say I don't, given that in most cases animal behaviour can be distilled to instinctual needs - that we too follow - such as procreation, survival, feeding, nurturing etc. What great lasting animal civilisations are there? What works of art? I'm being unfair here, human chauvanism, I'm judging other species by our own standards, but I think you can see the point. If animals took their own mortality to wish to achieve something lasting and meaningful, then I would have thought there would be some documented evidence for this. Do other animals have a concept of an afterlife? Do they know something we don't - exactly what happens after death? There's no evidence either way, and since it's logically impossible to prove a negative, the safest, most reasonable position is to assume that the answer to these questions is no until evidence exists to the contrary. I stand to be corrected if some does emerge, but I'm going to assume for the meantime that animals do not have a sense of mortality and legacy as developed as our own, and the very fact that we're questioning it, doubting it and debating it is, to some degree, proof of that....

 

Ruddy good answer Sal, i agree totally. I think this very logical acceptance of other creatures sentience yet still recognising our own unique qualities and abilities is key to understanding and respecting both us and them. Too often people are unwilling to link themselves with other species because they either feel it is degrading because other animals are worthless, or admitting similarities cancels out the fact we are superior (or "special") in many ways. I think you pretty much stated my views on the matter perfectly

(Although do i believe most animals are very, very underestimated, and things like the mirror test you mentioned really just dont do the job)

 

No, knowledge is more important than imagination. Imagination is a precursor to knowledge and, as such, it must be secondary. Imagination deals in possibilities at its most lucid, in fantasies at its least, and even impossibilities. Knowledge is concrete and it shapes our realities. Of course, imagination is hugely important. I'm a writer, without imagination I'd be very dry indeed, I trade and thrive on imagination. But can two plus two equal five? No, it equals four....

 

I'm bored and haven't had a question to answer in months. Someone stimulate me....

 

If an oompa loompa stormed a revolutiona nd put willy wonka out of business, what would the new factory be called?

 

^omg, that's a good question. better have a witty answer prepared dude. we're waiting.

but really you just wanted someone to make a crude joke about the word 'stimulate' didn't you?

 

I was thinking that.

 

obviously he got frightened and ran off to think about it for a while...

 

The United Socialist Republic and Dependent Territories of Free Oompa Loomponia Plus Wales....

 

I run from no man....

 

Do you think Marxist political philosophy is still relevant, or do you think that its flawed basis in a Lockean (mis)conception of human nature renders it just another utopian 'perfectability of man' thesis which is naive given our more thorough understanding of the role of genetic selection in adaptive behaviour?:tongue:

 

Do you ever think that its time you had a wash?

 

What has made you happy in the past few weeks?

 

I wouldn't say I've been on the top of my happyness game in the past few weeks, I've not been especially down either, but they've been a bit stagnant. When lots of things are happening in my life, when I'm highly active and motivated and applied, when I'm being productive, I feel a lot of momentum swinging behind me and I can get very happy. The last month or so has been a pretty slow phase. But there have been moments. Popping back to Cambridge, seeing old friends, doing Katy Brand's Big Ass (sounds so wrong!) show on monday and getting to have a laugh with one of the extras I met doing the Wolfman back in March. There's lots to look forward to, of course, got a couple of festivals over the summer, and will be taking a trip to India and Jordan, I would just like things to get moving a bit faster career and writing wise....

 

If you had to sell one of your friends to be able to get home from India, how would you chose the one who would be sold?

 

Do you like standing in the rain?