Looking back at VietNam

I said we didn't figure into our motives the fact that how we impliment a peace initiative MUST also take into consideration the conditions and environment of the area/country when aggressions hopefully cease. In the 60s and 70s WE DIDN'T. The present and continual shitty state of VietNam bears this truth out. We just wanted the fighting to stop...period! End of the movements involvement. Pat yourselves on the back and go home. And all some of you can do is point a finger at the government and say 'It was all their fault for what happened after!' That is not good enough. We should have been smarter. This person of that time sees a suffering people -------TT-I must be "not getting it?-or maybe too old to understand what you are saying here-I understand what it is you are seeking to see happen and yes in a perfect world this post war clean up and restoration job would definatley be ideal-Nobody wants to pat themselves on the back and give credit for stopping killing-That is not the reason anybody objects to a war to begin with-The Viet Nam war ended with the bad guys in place-We did all we could tp help the ggod guys; short of nuking the country into oblivion there was nothing more we could have done to win that mess-In any war tjhere is alot of innocent people killed and after the war there is going to be alot of long term fallout-No pun intended but look at WW2 after we dropped the big one-We went in and rebuilt Nagasaki and Hiroshima what do you do abou thwe radiation?-That never goes away-In Nam the bad guys took over and we couldn't go in there to do anything even if we tried-We don't support Communism-To say that the people in America and aroung the world who supported the end of the Viet Nam war could have done any more then they did' does not hold up to the facts-We were there for years fighting-We; Americans lost many people-Where was the Armies of the other countries -They sent in token crews to give an impression of helping the cause-That being the removal of the communist regime-The same thing has happened again and even more so in Iraq-America gets no help from it's supposed allies-This pisses me off because eeven thogh I believe the wae needed never been started; the fact that the very same countries that our are "allies" vanished!-In ww2 we defended England France and basically most of Europe from Germany-We defend and back up people who turn around and will not do the same-We have been made to look the fool and it is sickening-Alot of people in Europe would be speaking German today if we had ignored Hitler-Now-back to the part about the peace movement doing more-what would you suggest?_How much power or persuasion do you think the adverage Joe 6-pack has?-How much pull in Congress does the adverage person in this country or anywhere; have with the way the country is left-The bottom line is war is hell and innocent people die-If we get out now-less will die-will they be in a great political situation?-Who knows-But then thats their country not ours-They vote-we are guests only-The adveage Iraq citizen would be happy just to see us leave let alone re-pave the streets or whatever else you think we need to do for them-I think giving thousands of our men and women is plenty-What have we gotten back from them?-

 

What does that mean or how is it done?-To make the transition from war zone to one of peace and happiness-Are we talking monetary>_Or are you meaning to rebuild the schools and churches?-We do all that anyway-In Nam the Communists won-We don't support Communists-What could have been done after that war?-We always rebuild after a war-Seriously' I really don't understand this transition process-what does it? mean-and what does it include-They will probably be the happiest just seeing the killing stop-Anything else is just fluff-

 

Timetraveller-You do not have to answer this if you choose not to but after reading your posts a few times I have to ask-1. Are a Republican and are you in support of the war in Iraq?-I ask because it just does not make any sense for you to lay blame on the "peace movement" for the post war Viet Nam situation-You accuse the "peace movement" of helping to "securing an opressive regime" after we left there-This is completely false and frankly I am offended as an American-I would also ask if you are even an American citizen?-I have seen certain terms in your posts that are used mainly by people from G.B.-I am well travelled-Anyway;the reason I put the term peace movement in quotes is because there is no such group called the peace movement-There were and are many peace groups but none with that name alone-The people of planet Earth who hate wars and killing are many-THere are millions of peace loving people in this world and they don't all belong to groups-Many just express their feelings with letters to their congressmen and senators-like my parents did-For you to blame the peace loving' war hating people of the world for the bad government of Viet Nam is laughable-If you remeber;we lost the war and the communists took over power-Now; how could we have done anything to help that country when it is run by the enemy?-How do you make an easy transition from war zone to a place that resembles the play area of Mc Donalds?_When a war is over' anyone left alive is considered lucky-Alot of our men and women were not lucky and we should be looking out for the safety and protection of our own people-We lost thousand on 9-11 and thousands in the desert-The comfort of the Iraqis is up to them and the people they vote for-We have done way more then needed and where were the Allies-ie. England; France; Germany ?-We The Americans got lied to by our leeaders and ripped off by our allies-Fuck it!-Let everone start taking care of themselves-enough is enough-Time to rebuild the coast of America-The best place in the world!-They have enough oil to buy their own private security force-let em!

 

Every one, except the Military Industrial Complex, will be happy to see the killing end. Working for that MUST be done, no doubt in my mind, but that's not enough, more is needed. I think we need, while working toward peace, also be putting in place what'll be needed after peace comes. In other words... Peace, then what? Should it be peace, then loose interest and they're on their own. Or should it be, Peace, then help those who suffered get their lives going again.

After World War One, Germany (and most of Europe) received some, but only little or no help. Result - the European part of World War Two. After that war Europe got lots of help (Marshall plan) - result a very quick recovery economically, socially, and culturally, eventually the end of the Soviet Union, the Berlin Wall, the Iron Curtain and the change from communist to a democratic government in many countries. All those changes without another war.

In southeast Asia, the rebuilding by the U.S. that you speak of didn't happen. "What could have been done after that war?" We could have maintained economic, social, cultural, communication, transportation links. Those things could have helped those suffering recover. Those things can win over hearts and minds, guns and bombs never will.

Peace,
poor_old_dad

 

POD-Many people struggle with that I'm sure-We are taught to help others whenever possible-The problem seems to arise when the ones we help turn around and treat their people worse after we leave-We used to be friends and help Sadam remeber?-It would be nice if there was a multi national force that could go in and iron things out when these puppet dictators start their crap-The United Nations is useless-We really need a World Army to do the job-We all hate war but it cannot be the U.S responsibility to monitor the world-
Peace,
poor_old_dad
[/QUOTE

 

I totally agree, "problem seems to arise when the ones we help turn around and treat their people worse". (BTW also agree with what you said about Clinton in another thread) That does happen, not always, but it does happen. Does that mean we give up and stop trying?

You're right, Sadam got U.S. help when he was fighting Iran. And Osama bin Laden got U.S. help when he was fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan.

As to "U.S responsibility to monitor the world", that's one I see many sides to.

Peace,
poor_old_dad

 

It really is a shame that our government has to be taken to the cleaners so much-It's kinda like playin 3 card monti with some of these crooks that find their way to power-I honestly believe that it will become harder and harder for these power hungry leaders to get elected-The internet is growing more everyday in these other countries-Once everyone has a pc in their home instead of a cafe; they will have access to the facts about the person running for office-The internet should help alot of people with information gathering-I wish we had it in my day-I used to work for the George Mc Govern election campaign-Registering voters one at a time-So-I think we should hold off just giving lots of help to a new leader-lets watch them for awhile-You and I know that in this war it's about the oil anyway-and that is sad-We need to be 100% independent of that stuff-it is ruling and ruining the world-A friend of mine stopped by and posed a good question about helping with the post war clean-up-He reminded me that there were many people in Viet Nam that became millionairs during and after the war there-Alot of money from our government never made it to the right people-Many dollars were funneled into private accounts and never made it to cleanup or rebuilding-The same is happening now with Haliburton "missplacing" money-I think the last count had it around 12 million un -accounted for-hmm-If young people are becoming a little distrusting of our government; can we blame them-They have been told big lies for years now-It's disgusting-I don't know how people like the ceo's of Haliburton and Bechtel can sleep at night-These guys make millions from the war-They build the stuff that is blown up-They and their stockholders do not want to see an end to the war-It's great business-Stock prices are up in that department and they are all getting richer everyday the war goes on-How do you enjoy spending money that was made from the death and destruction of people and property in a war-?--This whole movie has played at this theater before-I for one am tired of watching it-Kick out the war dogs and bring in some people that like living-even if their broke-thats fine-jsut so long as they respect and enjoy being around people and love life-not money!

 

Poor OD-What do you think about having a world group that has the power to over ride a dictators power-If designed right it could be used to keep these fly by night puppet regimes in check-The militant jungle rebels and drug warloard that come to power by way of fear and intimadation could be taken out if need be-Lets face it; The nuke can be a scary weapon in the wrong hands we are all hostages!-So; if all nations of the world were included in one group who's goal was to stop the destruction of Planet Earth; I think it would be a big hit-Number 1 with a bullet!-And if I was elected to head this group I would not make any big decisions for any less the 1 million bucks American into my Caymen Island account-(just kidding)-make that 2-Anyway I just thought it sounded like a something that would help bring the nations together and maybe keep the world around for awhile longer-There are many people who could care less if they die-They should not be allowed to take others with them!-Suicide is a major sin in my book as the body is a sacred gift-and the soul is the heart of the universe-A real World Peace Group" would help to stop the people with destuction in mind-It is possible to live in peace if only people stop wanting stuff so bad they will kill for it!

 

OK-First things first-If I was in charge(Lord have mercy); I would have gone ater Bin Laden and his crew with full force-They were the target-not Iraq-The people there (Iraq) are definetly better and happier without him (Sadam). To be fair to Bush; I honestly believe his intention was to get Bin Laden but that plan got put on the back burner-Why?-Just a guess but like they say location. location; location-It is so important to know where you are and where "they ain't"!-He(Bin) hid out and we decided to go ahead and grab the oil as long as we were there anyway!-This is just my therory no more-Viet Nam was a mess before and after politically speaking-I;m not sure what was done after the war-The question is why us?-Since when did we become the worlds caretaker?-We are not and we are one nation amoung many-The oldest civilazations in the world are still here today with no help from anybody-The Greeks and the Romans did it their way-I used to live in both places and found it amazing what could be done with so little resourses-They had guts and they had brains and they had the Right Stuff!-And they are still here and are healthy and are at war with nobody-They are smart-Americans are a new thing and have not learned when to fight and when not to-You never travel around the world looking for trouble-How dumb is that?-Sorry Dad if I jumped off topic-I do that alot-by accident-just the way my tired ass brain works anymore-Yes-I completely agree that the whole free world should show some big time compassion and caring and help to restore Iraq-The young men and women there are there to help give them back their freedom-Very noble cause and it;s an honorable thing to do-But without more help from more troops from other nations; we have done all we can do-Without starting up the draft; we are out of soldiers-We are out of money and to stay the course is not only a waste of time but without any plan for success it will not work-Yes the bad guys need killin-they blew up our innocent men and women-but now we are creating more terrorists then we are getting rid of-If they-whoever-puts me in charge of say the world; then I would say we stop the war but keep a international security force in there for awhile-Troops from all nations loaded with the finest hardware-We build a small comfortable city that looks like a typical American suburb-Movie theaters-malls-car wash-video stores pizza places etc.-Make it look like home-Plenty of swimming pools in the back yards-Then publish a daily newspaper that is completely free-It should be very left wing-It should say anything it wants about our government-The whole point being to show what it;s like to live here-OK throw in a couple police brutality beatings just to keep it real-You could even actually have a drive by or a drug bust with no warrant just to beef up the realism!-Now-give the new town a name like New Iraq or New Improved Iraq-no more of Sadams thugs or the Iraqi thugetts-Shit our American gangbangers could go over and beat the hell out of those wimpy rag headed thug wanta bees!-Our thugs are the real deal!-Do those guys have cars that will bounce 6 feet in the air?-or do they carry around a stereo system that would blow down any tent on the block!-They have wimpy am radios in those oil cars-They probably listen to Sam The Sham And The Pharros!--OK-I'm done-you say thank God!hahaha-Remember kids this is your brain 30 yesrs from now!hahahah-NURSE!!

 

I am a small, self sufficient organic farmer. As such it is necessary to be, at least somewhat, practical. Part of being practical (in my cornor of the world) is to work on not spending time & effort on things that have little or no chance of happening. By that I mean the chance of it happening in the near or foreseeable future. And a World Army/Police force at this time is, I think, impossible. Could it happen "some day"? I don't know, I guess it could. Should it happen. Like I said, haven't thought about it, but off the top of my head I'd say - no.
I believe we (Planet Earth) have much more immediate problems. Things that can and should be worked on in the present so te future will be better, or at least there'll be a future.

Peace,
poor_old_dad

 

Dad and Rob - Sorry for the absence. Events have kicked up a few notches on the homefront and I won't have the time for postings for a while. Shame. I thank all for sharing your time and thoughts with me. You two have been quite busy with the posts, I see, and some great thoughts were written. Just so I don't leave Rob in the dark, I am as American as apple pie, only differently spiced. I have lived in Europe for over 16 years and the Orient for two, graduated from an english language international school in Greece and also have traveled extensively for work, study and pleasure (I plan to be in Panama and Colombia soon). For years my work had me all over the Middle East and northern Africa. My language tends to be fractured as I borrow bits and pieces from places I've been. A good habit I think because it allows for the use of more proper words, albeit foreign, to add emphasis to thoughts or phrases. I'm sure you do the same as you are also well traveled. My wife is Dutch, my daughter-in-law from Spain, my beer Irish, but my Merlot is Californian. One last thought, about having access to the vast knowledge available by way of the internet. The one hitch about having such access is that it is worthless if you don't know how to think, something our schools don't seem to require students to learn to a large degree. I have met sooooo many straight-A students who didn't know how to put what they had learned to any practical application or had much of an idea about the world (near or far), a failure I place mostly at the feet of our education system. See ya'll in time. Ciao!

 

Personally, I don't think the outcome would have been any brighter for the victimized Vietnamese if we had not marched in the streets. While impossible to clearly construct alternative histories, it is more likely that our military involvement in Vietnam and in Iraq, would have and will cause more overall human misery -- here and there -- than numerous alternatives. The only good thing that may come out of the Iraq "war" is that, hopefully, policy-makers will realize that traditional military intervention is an obsolete concept. Of course, it is also like that we will live to see more deadly attacks on our people because we made such so popular -- a very big price for an education.

Robert Eggleton
Rarity from the Hollow (my first novel)

 

I think this is a good thread, but ya,ll should come to the Politics sub-forum too. Lot of good discussion there, but there could be more.

Peace,
poor_old_dad

(yeah, I'm putting this idea in a few places, so mst possible will see it)

 

Oh yes,but here is where it's needed.

 

i agree Gate-I like this place cuz we can talk about anything-hopefully positive-Ya know-I got kicked off one forum for "not staying on topic"-What is that!?-I was talking with one guy about burning dvds and it was an open forem-The guy who ran and set up the forum sells utility software-He said one program I had was a weak version of his!-So I said bs-it's better then yours and I use both-He kicked me off-That was an "open" forum?-Hello Moscow-People have no clue as to what freedom of speech is-it's sad!-