libertarians posing as fredom fighters, progressives,leftists...

"The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive."~Jefferson~

It's not wanting to take care of people that's the problem. You may have a moral obligation to help someone. I support that, and even encourage it. But it's wrong to want government to steal money, to distribute it as they see fit. Plus, for every new program we make the people have to pay employees, overhead and, provide the funds to take care of those people. That's not fair to someone who may never even have children, to be forced to pay for daycare, for other's peoples kids.

I think people have a moral obligation to help one another, without government force, threats or, coersion forcing them to.

We are already paying for teachers to get plastic surgery. I mean, I was joking about that old folks home, but I knew Liberals would go for it, because they support anything that's perceivingly "helping" people, even if it's actually hurting people.

Government nurses would probably be lazier, less involved and, slow. This is how government Medicade, DMV, schools and, jails employees run. Which isn't horrible in itself- but, the horrible part is the price always skyrockets; The government will pay anything, because it isn't their money. That's what happened with Medicare, college tuition, Military ARMS etc.

That's another reason why I don't see Liberalism ever working; For each new person Liberals want to "help," there becomes a huge government program, and overspending has already caused the "Sequestration," so idk where Liberals come off thinking we can expand, without trimming the fat. I don't see that happening. Liberals would first have to cut spending, and they only want to cut military spending. But, due to Nixon suspending Gold for dollars, we promised other countries military protection indefinitely, and that's why our whole system is broken.

You can't get everything Liberals want, without all the printing, debt and, war. But we certainly could provide infrastructure, police, firemen and, schools, that's all been around since we were formed. Some of it started by our private citizens.


But also, there's a reason our founders put the Rights in the Constitution. These are Human Rights; That is to say, they didn't come from government. So, therefore government cannot take them from us. Although, today, every other law does just that. I want Liberals to understand how bad this issue actually is. The government will have 20,000 drones in the sky by 2020, Obama has murdered a 16 year old American citizen, because his father 'may' have been a terrorist, we torcher people, we torchered manning, we've had people locked in Gitmo since 2001, most of which, have been proven innocent and cleared for release. But Obama signed the NDAA, to hold them indefinitely. (I think they don't want their dirty secrets getting out.) Moreover, our police have a quota to meet and I REALLY don't like that; It's like Pre Emptive Policing. Then, cops are just bullies who will search anyone who looks like they may smoke pot (unconstitutionally, but cops are allowed to LIE and say it's legal.) Plus, I mean we're not free. If we were free it'd be one thing to pay into the pot. But freedom means (to me; ) Every individual should have the Right to decide what they do with their own body. As long as, you don't hurt anyone or destroy their private property. Also, the way Libertarianism weeds out the evil corporations from the good ones, is they would finally be subject to the law. They would be jailed for bribery, force, property damage etc. On the other hand, Obama just made it illegal to sue Monsanto, even if their product gives you cancer!

 

It seems you make a lot of biased projections into the future, assume all tax money is being wasted by democrats, and put a lot of stock into conspiracy theories stp.

 

I don't mean to sound antagonistic, but do you really believe Obama is getting ready to round people up into FEMA camps?

 

I would almost bet money on it that these strange events will not come to pass while Obama is president. Contradicting all I have heard about from the right wing and libertarian conspiracy theorists.

 

First of all, I was only stating facts. Obama made it legal to indefinitely detain anyone "suspected of terrorism," that could be used to mean, anyone the Federal Government wants.

He's also Declared Martial Law in NY and NJ, during hurricane sandy. I think he's conditioning us, to accept unconstitutional government, when we are scared.

He's perpetuated the "war on terror," killing 'terrorists' with no evidence that they are terrorist, and killing his 16 year old son, who the white house admits he wasn't a terrorist. He's also drone striking countries we aren't at war with! He also signed a bill to put 20,000 drones in American skies by 2020.

He's taking away bits of our constitution, at the whim of government alone. I'm not "biased," I hate republicans and democrats equally. They are both war mongers, who blow our money at the drop of a dime. It is BOTH liberals and democrats. However, Obama is an evil, corrupt president; If you don't realize after all his scandals, lies, Unconstitutional laws, attempts at war, illegal regime changes and, gun control attempts, then evidently you shouldn't be discussing politics at all. Politics is more than what someone tells you they're gonna do, it's what their real life policy is; Obama is no better than Bush, or Romney.

Look into NDAA(2012+ 13), CISPA, HR347, FAA Reauthorization act and, NDRP. Then, come back and defend your precious leader. He is a fake, and an actor. I hated Bush too, so, don't think I hate Obama cause he's Democratic. I hate Government who uses force to get peaceful people to comply with their Arbitrary Rules. Like the "war on drugs;" Obama has smoked weed, and snorted coke but, he happily imprisons others for doing the same! He's a scam-- a good actor. He works for the corporations, as a puppet on stage; He works from them and, lies to us!

 

You make a lot of claims that you can't back up. You talk about how government funded programs are obviously more costly, but then ignore me when I point out that Canada spends less than half of the money as Americans on healthcare per capita yet we are healthier.

 

Sounds like you've made the case for getting the Federal government out of our health care if they're spending more than twice what is necessary per capita and producing negative results.

 

You can't compare Canada to the US in those ways, there are too many cumulative and cultural differences.

 

I'm talking America as a society, not a state. The majority of healthcare expenditure in the US is from private sources, where in Canada the majority is publicly funded.

 

Liberalism = class envy

 

I'm not talking about CANADA's Government, I'm talking about the US government; It's obvious government programs are worse than private companies. With private companies, firstly, you're able to decide if you want/need the program (you're not FORCED to buy it, like government programs.) Moreover, they would be in competition, making prices go down. With government, the opposite happens; they FORCE people to buy insurance and, the price raises. I have provided proof, this is all we have to show for Medicare after 40 years. The Post Office is losing money, Social Security is buying stockpiles of weapons and ammo, (as is the DHS. )

Canada may be different. This is why I say everyone should do their own thing. However, our country was founded to be a safe haven from over-bearing governments and overtaxation. But we're controlled by bankers now, who have no respect for our country, or our people. The government is a monopoly of force, and since you inadvertently support that force, you're trying to discredit me.

Obama's healthcare law is expensive, and supported by the insurance companies. It will tax some middle class families out of existence.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/09/23/aca-family-glitch-issues/2804017/

Liberalism is horrible for the states, because middle class families have 2 party's working full time, and they are still sinking behind due to taxes. I would like to cut Republican spending too, but Liberals/Democrats still support the whole rotten system, by suggesting we pay more.

Harry Reid said (with regard to the shutdown) Oh, "we NEED ObamaCare, it was just about to make government WORK." 200 years, and even democrats admit, government doesn't work, especially not for the people. They play like it isn't their fault, however, if people look further in our history than Bush, they'd see corruption, lies, war mongering and, waste on BOTH sides of the political isle..

 

Golly, I wonder if large numbers of liberal Americans may begin moving to Canada to improve their lifestyle?
Those I know who claim to be Libertarians do not pose as anything other than what they are, Libertarians. I think it would be more accurate to state that Leftists/Progressivists/and most Democrats pose as being compassionate, as long as they put costs on someone else.

 

Put the costs on those who can afford it in luxury. If we're on a ship, and we certainly are all in this together, the biggest, strongest men should be pulling the most weight. They should be happy to contribute. Let the weak do what they can in their own way, but the strong should bear the brunt of the burden.

 

Ya, Fox, I read you, but corporations go out of business all the time. They seem almost temporary, thus less fearsome.

The Attorney General still holds the whip hand. I read of big fines all the time.

Seems like Government can pick who stays, who goes , with fines, or subsidies.

 

Indie

But I’ve known many right wing libertarians who’ve claimed they have left wing leanings including you for instance who said –

“I might be seen as a little Left of center when it comes to my immediate family, friends and neighbours”

You never actually explained what you meant by that but at the time I mused that people are usually more tolerant, understanding and kinder to their family, friends and neighbours than they are to others – and you seem to associate those things with ‘left wing’ thinking - that in your head ‘left wing’ is associated with being kinder, more tolerant and more understanding and that that would seem to imply that for you right wing ideas are therefore associated with more intolerant, bigoted and cruel ideas and that you would wish to impose these intolerant, bigoted and cruel right wing ideas on anyone not actually close to you.

 

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Oh please could you stop just repeating the same old stuff and actually start to addressing the many outstanding criticisms of those views?

The big one being that your ‘free market’ thinking would always seem to end up allowing wealth to dominate society and politics.

(PS And please don't say you have addressed that because we all know that you haven't because you cannot produce any evidence that you have)

 

Taxes barely amount to much money lost for the middle class. And that little bit taken from everyone provides for all the programs which help the common good.

You are delusional if you think that taxation is making people poor. Absolutely delusional.

 

actually, taxes for the average individual, is around 20%. I was losing 25% from my income tax alone. All the different programs cost extra money, and it's proven that we have been witnessing the biggest transfer of wealth to the top 1%, in the History of mankind. So yes, I do believe people are overtaxed.

I think this takes a toll especially on small businesses, and the middle class, who could do FAR much more with our money, than wasting Trillions overseas and, bailing out filthy rich corporations.

And, non of this is for the greater good. The programs that Leftists endorse/force unto people, are nothing more than Government Monopolies, (usually with private corporate interests behind them.

Our government doesn't do what they do for the "greater good," That is only a facade. They work for the Military-industrial complex and the Prison Industrial Complex, (who puts them into power.) They don't ban drugs because they're "bad for us." And, they certainly aren't forcing 313 million people to buy insurance, because they want to "help us."


It was the countries biggest Insurance Companies that were behind Obamacare, if they wanted to help you, why not just lower prices for coverage?

Because under government, you're FORCED to buy in, allowing them to raise prices and take control of the entire market, through government force!


There's a reason why, Obama is constantly violating the Constitution with the laws he passes. (Btw, that's not a conspiracy at all, just read up on them: NDAA, CISPA, HR347, The Faa Reauthorization Act, and the executive order NDRP. Obama is a crook, just like Bush was.

The Mainstream Republicans work for the same elite that he does, so they're not "holding him back," from anything. That's all just part of the political show!

 

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But as has been shown time and again your ideas would seemingly leave wealth dominant and would most likely give it even more power and influence – criticisms you are unwilling or unable to address.

To repeat about lowing taxation it just increases the power and influence of wealth, people at the low end of the scale don’t receive back anything like those at the top. It gives disposable wealth to those who least need it and going by history would only use it to further their own interests.

Let us say that there was a simple 10% tax and it was returned.

So someone earning 1000 gets back 100 dollars not much

10,000 = 1000 still not much

(Average wage in US is around 40,000 = 4000 dollars)

100,000 = 10,000 now that’s better

[“According to the census bureau only 21.8% of FAMILIES made over $100,000 a year” even fewer individuals]

1,000,000 = 100,000 now you’re getting serious money

[People and households earning $1 million or more annually made up just 0.1 percent, or just over 235,000, of the 140 million tax returns filed in 2009]

10,000,000 = 1,000,000 that will buy a lot of influence

[just 8,274 returns were filed by people making $10 million or more – 0.003% of 300 million is 9000]

100,000,000 = 10,000,000 and that a whole lot more.

To me that’s bad enough but actually there is progressive taxation meaning the wealthy pay more and so would get vastly more back if taxes were reduced or removed.

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The reason for the huge transfer of money to wealth is because they were given more wealth through tax cuts –

Fall in top rate tax

1945 - 94%
1970 – 70%
1982 - 50%
1990 - 28%
2010 – 33%

Also in the 1970 Capital Gains tax was 32%, it has been reduced to 15%.

And the inheritance tax system in the US is very generous to wealth (unlimited in 2010).

This wealth gain happened in a political system that gives influence to wealth the richer wealth is the greater influence it has.

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So the criticism of your ideas is that you seem to wish to give wealth even greater power and you constantly refuse to address this in any rational or reasonable way even going as far as lying to try and cover that fact up.