Libertarianism started as a PR campaign for big business

It just makes sense, really.

http://www.alternet.org/visions/tru...ny-ideology-promote-corporate-agenda?page=0,0

 

Well, if true it wouldn't surprise me, since any time you align yourself with a popular movement or political party, you are aligning yourself with the system and something that was given to the masses to follow, which is why I don't subscribe to the Libtertarian party, or even the libertarian ideology. I feel that the same holds true for every political party -- esp. the two main ones which are openly corporate-controlled.

 

in high school my teacher said i'd allign best with libertarianism but.... it's all just another flavor of the same old negative crap, and i'm tired of labelling it anymore.

 

This website is SO bias, is funny! The First section under politics "The Tea Party and the Right"- then it's talking about how "dishonest" republicans are, like Democrats and Liberals aren't just as dishonest and corrupt. But, I expect stuff like this from you.


Milton Friedman was an economist, and, he doesn't represent the whole of Libertarianism. Maybe he was the start of economic freedom, but failed to include the Human Freedoms, which is the biggest part of Libertarianism. If corporations we're behind Libertarians, Ron Paul would gotten more than $263 from any corporation in the 2012 election. While, Obama received BILLIONS.

You're trying to sway people your way, but, you're not fooling anyone but yourself. And oh! I wasn't supposed to mention Obama; That's because you've verbally admitted you like him, and it's impossible to point out the hypocrisy in you blaming Libertarians for some economist in the 1950's receiving bribes, while Obama receives bribes daily, and have those bankers and lobbyist in our White House, running our Government!

 

Interesting article and to add to it I’d point out that this has not been a purely American phenomena

1947 marked the first meeting of the Mont Pelerin Society, and amongst its founders were Milton Friedman and George Stigler who are mentioned in the OP’s article.

As George Monbiot has commented - When the Mont Pelerin Society first met, in 1947, its political project did not have a name. But it knew where it was going. The society’s founder, Friedrich von Hayek [Austrian Economist], remarked that the battle for ideas would take at least a generation to win, but he knew that his intellectual army would attract powerful backers. Its philosophy, which later came to be known as neoliberalism, accorded with the interests of the ultra-rich, so the ultra-rich would pay for it.

It set up what I call the ‘Mont Pelerin method’ which involves setting up right wing think tanks that pay people to promote free market/neoliberal ideas (they are basically PR/lobbying groups) and support academics who write to order.

If you look at most free market think tanks in Europe and the US you will most likely find a connection to the MPS and in many universities neoliberal economic thinking predominates to the point where many students disillusioned by is flaws are demanding a wider range of ideas to be taught.

Anyway these people and institutions produce(d) supposedly ‘independent’ reports that are then used by the wealth financed media as ‘proof’ that free market and neoliberal ideas are economically superior to other. It doesn’t seem to matter that many of these report when actually looked at don’t stand up to scrutiny because as always people read the headline on page one not the later retraction at the bottom of page twenty-three.

And with this drip drip approach neoliberal idea then become the ‘common sense’ of many ordinary people who come to forums like this and try and push that wealth supporting agenda – only to discover that they a totally unable to defend it from criticism, because it is indoctrinated ‘evidence’ that seems to have involved no real though on their part.

 

Again the ‘freedom’ misdirection that right wing libertarians always seem to want to pull out of the hat hoping no one notices the bunny has long since been died and is turning green.

In right wing libertarian thinking ‘economic freedom’ predominates and what it means in the main is freedom of wealth to exploit those who are economically weaker.

What’s left over for many right wing libertarians (what is called here ‘human freedoms’) are just the ‘don’t care as long as it doesn’t cost me anything in taxes’.

I don’t care who has sex with whom - long as it doesn’t cost me anything

I don’t care if women have abortions - long as it doesn’t cost me anything

I don’t care if people take drugs - long as it doesn’t cost me anything

And so on and so on.

Oh and of course there is for many RWL’s the freedom to suffer great hardship unnecessarily.

 

Lol at 'human freedoms'.

Name one politician who openly campaigns against freedom. I can understand being a libertarian if you're selfish and rich, but if you're swallowing the simple-minded populism that these people spew I feel sorry for you.

Ron Paul didn't receive donations because he wasn't taken seriously by anyone who actually matters.

 

Why would any politician openly campaign against freedom? They campaign claiming to be in favor of it, only to take it away once they get in office. That's what politicians do, they lie.

 

Oh, so in one breath you criticize the "selfish and rich" and in the next, you call them "the only people that matters."

No, politicians don't "campaign" against freedom, because they rely on stupid sheeple believing their lies, and following along with it. Obama is a perfect example of these liars who say they believe in Freedom, until they get into the White House.

It's you who is swallowing Government rhetoric, used to colonize the people.

I'm Libertarian because they believe and actively fight, to keep our Right to Bear arms. (A VERY important part of true freedom)

I'm Libertarian, because I've seen government monopolies fail time and time again! Yet, Leftist believe in bigger government, which will inevitably come tumbling down as well.

I'm Libertarian, because I see the massive debt, compiled by government, placed on the backs of Middle/Working Class Americans, who are already having a hard time getting by.

But I'm especially Libertarian because since 9/11/2001, Americans have been perpetually losing our Human Rights, and it's because of fake-ass Candidates, like the politician you admittedly like, Mr. Obama.

I feel sorry for you; It takes a very ignorant, closed-minded and, cold person, to openly accept the murder of other (innocent)citizens, openly accept the restraints put on the First Amendment, Openly accept a President who believes HE is above the Rule of Law and the U.S Constitution, merely for your own alleged "safety" and "comfort."


There is no lesser of two evils, you're just stuck in the illusion they've put before you.

 

Who are you arguing with? It's not me. It's a character you've made up in your head, and projected onto anyone who disagrees with you.

 

I'm not sure why you think the best thing to do is surrender power to the capitalists as opposed to say, demanding more accountability from leaders and businessmen.

 

big business isn't necessarily evil (and under a libertarian system where companies would not be pushed forward by governments and politics and business would be less interconnected, it would be more likely that big businesses would come from intelligent/enterprising people rather than just people involved in serious corruption/collusion).

It's the government that's almost always evil. So too is big business in the 21st century, but the businesses that would grow up around a minimized government system would be much less evil than those that exist today, I believe.

 

25

You mean like you?

I mean you are pumping out the same ‘lies’ of supposed freedom under right wing libertarian ideas that as explained at length seem only to be a mirage.
And it seems that you want people to unquestioningly accept what you say without question like sheep.

As to hollow rhetoric you are one of the main culprits on the forum

We have been through all this try reading – [FONT=&quot]Can guns save you from suppression?[/FONT]
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=253937

To quote from another post – Think about US history, did the Native American that fought back, get the support of the American citizenry? What if the US citizens of Japanese decent had resisted the unconstitutional internment imposed on them, and what if they had shot at the police would they have got general popular support? What about these hauled in front of McCarthy, would people have rallied to them if they had refused to go before such a witch hunts and opened fire on those that came to take them?

Which as we’ve been through many times is down in large part to the neoliberal/free market thinking that has caused so much economic woes over the last 30 odd years or so.

But as I’ve explained many times (see the link above) US governments and administrations have been doing that since the beginning of the union and were often applauded by many Americans. Often the same right wing gun owning Americans that claimed they stood for ‘freedom’.

 

hedge

Nothing is inherently ‘evil’ (and you would need to define what that means anyway) but the kind of systems things work in can greatly influence the kind of behaviour shown.

If bad practice is allowed then it is likely to take place, and if it is encouraged then it is definitely going to take place. If you have a business system in which the maximisation of profit is pushed above social benefit then there is a likelihood that bad practise will take place in the pursuit of profit.

BUT remember the US government is elected; if ‘evil’ representatives are elected into power resulting in an ‘evil’ government that brings suffering to the voters then isn’t the problem with the voters for electing in ‘evil’ representatives?

It seems to me you are blaming ‘government’ (an elected government) for being ‘evil’ when the true problem is a dysfunctional political system that allows ‘evil’ representatives into power, it would seem then to me that the solution would then be to try and fix the political system so it elects ‘good’ representatives into power.

(Of course you’d also have to define what is meant as ‘good’)

But there never has been such a ‘libertarian’ system and for reasons explained there never could be one.

Try reading -
[FONT=&quot]Free market = plutocratic tyranny[/FONT]
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=353336&f=36

Any move toward right wing libertarianism would so much increase the power of wealth that it would corrupt or seize control making a bad situation worse with even greater corruption/collusion.

Why do you believe that – I mean it doesn’t seem to have that much backing in history?

If anything less well regulated systems have resulted in higher levels of exploitation, slavery, child labour, low wages, long hours, unhealthy and unsafe work places etc etc

And weak governments have usually resulted in the emergence of other power groups, oligarchs, organised crime lords even armed militias, that can have a detrimental effect on society.

 

Yes, this is what Libertarians believe.
The problem is that it isn't true.

 

Just because Liberals repeat something over and over, doesn't make it true. You THINK my views focus power and wealth, but you have literally no backing behind it, except you assuming.

Actually, what I say is true- and I expect people to look it up. (if they don't believe me.) You're just pulling these statements out of your ass, and attempting to discredit me. It's Liberals who believe in the Corporate Propaganda.

You heard Fraggle; Lobbyists are the "only people that matter," to Liberals who support extensive violence and force.

Coming from someone who says my views represent the past 40 years of policies in America. But actually, NONE of the laws or policies, of the past 40 years, are Libertarian.

What has happened in America since the 1960's? The government has expanded massively. That's the opposite of what Libertarians want to do.

You're blaming Libertarians for something that is obviously the fault of Democratic, Liberal and, Republican Politicians- NONE of whom were Libertarian.

Obviously not!I'm not defending them killing the Indians, but, the Indians did side with the King later on. This is history, and history we can't change, your strategy has been mentioning events that have nothing to do with Libertarianism, and blaming it on them anyway.

I can't say. But, I would support such actions, because the Government had no Right to detain American citizens without trial. Locking Japanese in internment camps, was a very corrupt thing to do.

But, Obama has set the stage to do the same thing to ANY citizen of ANY race, and Leftists defend his Constitutional violations merely by saying "it's been done before."

Libertarians believe in Human Rights above all else. I'm laughing at Fraggle, for assuming that Obama, Romney and, all the other pinhead Banker puppets, represent freedom.

Libertarianism is the only party that actually does shift the power-grab, away from the Government. The Leftist Obama has perpetuated spending, the war on terror and, the suspension of the Constitution-- but Leftists don't care what he DOES, only what he claims to believe in.

Idk what you're talking about. Everything you bring up is Unconstitutional Genocide; If the government is violating the Constitution, and your life is at risk- Yes, I think one should protect themselves, by any means.

The History you've brought up, is totally contrary to Libertarian principles. Of course, I don't agree with slavery or killing Indians. However, The Right to Bear Arms was the only reason we won our Independence from Brittan. Moreover, the confiscation of firearms was one of the chief causes of our seperation from the King.

There is a story of a little boy who protected his home and his little sister, from 4 robbers, with his Dad's assault rifle. Guns protect people every day of the year.

More people die from falling than from Gun Violence every single year-- Why isn't Obama talking about banning high places, or putting safety nets around big buildings? Because it's not really about our safety, it's about leaving us defenseless to Government Agencies like the DHS and Social Security, who have enough ammo to shoot every citizen 5 times.

Obama kills teenage citizens with Plastic flying death machines, but Liberals who support them, refuse to allow anyone but government to have guns.

And we all KNOW government agents NEVER do anything harmful or illegal.

http://rt.com/usa/los-angeles-sheriffs-misconduct-163/


http://rt.com/usa/omaha-parking-police-assault-video-258/

As I've said above, barely ANY of the laws made in the past 40 years, are even CLOSE to Libertarianism. First of all, the government has expanded drastically, whereas Libertarians want to shrink Government.

The policies of the past 40 years, is government working for the elite 1%. The Elite control the laws, and bend them in their favor.

The Economic woes in America, has NOTHING to do with Libertarianism.

Tax Cuts have been geared toward the wealthy; In a Libertarian system, everyone would receive tax cuts, and would only have to pay the Fair Tax. This would help normal middle/working class Americans save money, invest in stocks, start a business etc.

Drug Laws, are against Libertarian principles. We believe people should be able to freely decide what they wish to put into their own body.

The Military-industrial complex, runs totally contrary to Libertarian views. And wasteful government spending is as well

It is Liberals and those who wish for more government that have gotten us into this mess.

Well, I don't support most of what government does, or has done. Your whole technique in attacking me, has no viable basis behind it.

You're blaming me, for mainstream Republicans, who (much like Liberals) will surrender the Human Rights of others, in order to impose their will on the Nation. Therefore, the don't really stand for freedom (Liberals included)

Leftists like to say they represent freedom; Meanwhile, their politicians banned larged soft drinks, legalized war propaganda. They also actively oppose our Right to Bear arms, despite the fact that government bullies the entire world into submission with their guns.

Leftist are the ones blindly following the government. When people blame everything on Republicans- I can't help but laugh.

It's as if Leftist JUMP to attack Republicans- but, as soon as you mention a politician they like (Obama,) they yell, and bitch and, claim that's all you talk about.

Meanwhile, the Left is still mad at Bush for over 6 years! Get over it! Bush was wrong to sign the patriot act, yes- But, Obama has deliberately violated the Constitution multiple times, and has even fought for the Right to kill citizens, but some HYPOCRITES, think only Government can have weapons, and no one should be able to defend themselves from people who are meant to be Public Servants.

Leftist are stuck in Imagination Land!

They want to ban guns (for American citizens and not government)

They don't refute or oppose Obamas Constitutional violations (there's alot)

They're not actively opposing the NSA, DHS and, other government agencies, who make their living violating the Constitution, and get paid from the back of the taxpayers!

They want to expand government, (despite the 17 trillion dollar debt.)

If you actually think this is the route to freedom, you need to turn off your telescreen once in a while, and think about the jargon going on in it.

Freedom means to be free from restraint. Leftist wish to add more restraints, and Libertarians wish to free people from these bonds. Most of which, have been decided by this corporate oligarch.

Lobbyist and Bankers (who fraggle called "The only important people,") are the dim-witted money-hungry assholes, who control our policies, and rape the worlds natural resources.


Of course, to Fraggle, Independent Americans and the Majority of troops are "no body important"

I feel bad for the both of you- you both totally believe a load of Political Garbage! The way things are going now, we will soon have no freedom left.


But Fraggle believes, every candidate and, politician, believes in freedom, because they campaigned on it!

I can't roll my eyes enough for the two of you...

I think you two, have serious dependency issues..

At least you're not American- it explains why you don't know what REAL freedom is.:2thumbsup:

 

This is definitely my favorite post of yours.

 

25

I’ve put forward my criticisms of right wing libertarianism, and in the majority they remain unaddressed and definitely haven’t been refuted, which would seem to indicate that they stand and the ideology is deeply if not mortally flawed.

Now many right wingers have claimed that they have addressed these criticisms BUT not one of them has actually been able to produce any evidence to back up their claims.

You believe it to be true – BUT seem incapable of defending your view form criticisms beyond just telling us you are right and your critics are wrong – which isn’t a rational or reasonable defense.

The thing is that often do ‘looked it up’ and that is why I find it flawed and unable to stand up to even the slightest scrutiny. I (and others) have presented our criticisms many times – it is you that seems unable to refute those criticisms.

 

25

Oh hells bells man read the posts before going off on one of your rants –

There never has been and never could be a free market system as envisioned by right wing libertarians because any move toward a ‘free market’ results in wealth gaining so much power and influence that it can corrupt the system to its own ends and to the detriment of other groups.

I find it strange that some right wing libertarians rant against the results of ‘free market’ thinking and policies but then claim the solution is more of the same which would result in giving yet more power and influence to wealth so they can further dominate the system to their own ends.

We are in a hole and their solution is to dig it deeper – its madness.

For example

But as pointed out tax cuts seem to always favour wealth, that is why so many wealth sponsored think tanks and lobbyists are calling for them.

Take the movement for a ‘Fair Tax’ system this is being promoted by wealth sponsored think tanks – (like Americans For Fair Taxation) do you think wealth would be sponsoring it if they thought they would end up paying more than they do now?

And other things you state again without address the outstanding criticisms -

As I’ve pointed out above most right wing libertarians view on such subjects is that they don’t care as long as it doesn’t cost them anything in taxes.

It’s not about addressing the problems that can be associated with drugs but turning their back on them – and also with their free market approach the most likely outcome would be that big business would gain the greater advantage.

BUT it is history – it happened in the real world - you seem unable to point to anything to back you up your ideas other than some utopian dream of what you think things should have been like or could be if people just embraced right wing libertarian ideas - that only if the world was perfect then you perfect ideas would work perfectly

Sorry but you really need to start working in the real world rather than living in one in your imagination. You might then see that your ideas only wither or die under the glare of realities light.

 

25

Oh stop it with this constant ‘freedom’ misdirection until you address all the outstanding criticisms as to what ‘freedom’ would mean under a right wing libertarian system – I mean even witch burners used to claim they were bringing ‘freedom’ to their poor old innocent victims.

Shouting ‘freedom’ does not mean you are not going to do great harm.