Liberals posing as freedom fighters.

You claimed that the government engineered the Navy Yard shooting, and then admitted that you based that assertion on absolutely no evidence. Was that stating facts?

 

Yes I do remember when liberals supported civil liberties. I used to be a dedicated liberal. They lost their way and their current leader, Obama, is a traitor to that cause along with our Nation. What the FUCK happened to the Democratic party ? They seemed to have turned into mindless sheep. ...Oscar

 

25

Sorry but all I see in your rants is unsubstantiated accusations, name calling, misdirection and outright lies but above you display a simplistic, generalistic and rather naive view of the world.

First of all what you seem to view as ‘liberal’ seems to cover anyone with views form right of centre to hard-line communist. And they are all ‘collectivists’ and they all support Obama and they all support abortion and they’re all against gun ownership and they all what tyrannical government, and you hate, hate, hate them.

But this is way too simplistic – many on the left do NOT support the US’s Democratic Parties right of centre policies, but realistically, in a two party state, where are they meant to go? The American system forces people to choose the lesser of two evils.

Voting to keep out the mad, bad and dangerous, is not support.

There have been many threads on abortion and gun ownership and it’s very clear they are complicated and complex subjects, where there is no definite line between them and us.

And the discussion on the pro’s and con’s of government have been going on for some 5,000 years and is not going to stop anytime soon, and again it is not a simple matter of them and us.

Look man I’ve met you in many of these threads and your contributions have not being that outstanding, you don’t seem to have any reasoned argument relying on assertion and that if people don’t agree with you then they must be wrong because they disagree.

 

They do that to keep everyone busy, the ol' shell game. Like, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". Notice how "they" shut down the government, but "they" still get paid, and "they" still get their medical insurance. It's so easy to fuck people when "they" can do that.

 

Actually, I said quite the opposite of all that. I said "Not ALL Liberals support Obama," and I also said Liberals inadvertently support bigger, more invasive government. I went over every post on here last night, and read every post, and obviously I didn't start with anyone and I explained my views over and over. I do admit I was getting a little ticked by the end, but to be clear I am not the one who was name calling and generalizing first.

As far as I know, I never said I HATE Liberals-- I don't. I strongly disagree with their policies, but I can't hate people I don't know as individuals, I don't do that. I maybe said I hate something in the ideology, but not that I hate Liberals. I definitely don't.

When I say they all support a tyrannical government, it's because our government is tyrannical, and they are basically accepting it. Accepting it, and pushing for more money to fund it, and more programs to legitimize it.

.
They should go to Third Party Candidates, they have REAL platforms. I've heard of many Liberals going to the Green party I think.

There is no lesser of two evils. The Banks we're financing both of them, so either way, Walstreet won.
Still, there's other Liberals who don't support Obama, and that's awesome! At least they really believe in Civil Liberties. But, they still inadvertently support the use of force, because they want government taxes. If someone doesn't pay their taxes, they go to jail. To me, any type of government initiation of force, is wrong. That's not to say they can't shoot someone who will or has killed someone. But they can't shoot a guy for like stealing a flat screen or anything. They can't shoot his dog, over a dirty marijuana bowl, like they do today.

The thing is though, I'm not generalizing, because it's part of the Liberal philosophy to expand the size and scope of government. That's not a lie. Liberals want more government programs, which is essentially, more Branches of the Federal Government. They are the one's who start wars, waste trillions of dollars and, take corporate bribes. I don't see anyway Liberalism would take care of that; That's the main reason I posted this topic. If there's Liberals out there who actually do oppose the status quo, I'd love to hear how they think we can fix this problem.

Those qualities are not exclusive to the Republican party, nor is war. Democrats do all the same stuff, they just have better rhetoric. Obama has killed citizens, droned countries we're not at war with, made unconstitutional ragime changes in Libya, had mulitiple scandals and, signed MANY Unconstitutional Laws. He is FAR from the lesser of two evils.

It is complex. But the Gun issue is more important to me, because it is the 2nd Amendment. Mexican Drug Cartels have AK47's and Uzi's, and they don't even trust us with Semi-auto AR15's? I think they don't want us to have guns so they can oppress us, with little resistance.

I disagree. Maybe that's fine for England. I respect your culture. But the American Culture is one in which we have certain freedoms no mortal man can take. This is the Lie we've been told since we were young. Then, you get a certain age, and realize it's really not like that. They are taking our freedoms everyday, and our founders actually predicted tyranny could come back to America. However, it's up to the citizens to notice it and do something about it. People are just now starting to notice. But I've seen a sudden flip; Most Liberals are content, whereas, others can see the violations on our Liberties.

I disagree. I think Liberals get mad at me for using the word Liberal. Apparently, it's like the "N" word; Only they can use it.

I am always up for a good debate or a real conversations. It's Liberals who jump the gun, and act crazy at me, for stating me opinion.

I'm totally over it. That's why I make generalizations about you guys, cause the majority of Liberals, (who represent the group,) can't converse civilly.

 

StpLSD25

So, when you are talking about 'liberals' you are actually talking about 'Democrats' (leftt-wing/liberal) V 'Republicans' (right-wing/conservative) and what you think you are a 'Libertarian' (a combination of the two)?

I think all three can and have:
Raised taxes
Lowered taxes
Implemented/continued what you consider: wasteful government programs
Signed what you consider: unconstitutional Laws

I think it's pointless getting into a conversation with you relating to any of the above, because most is personal opinions (anybody that disagrees with you is a 'liberal').

Especially if you want to get into what you consider 'world government' (collectivism) - what most consider international relations etc etc etc.
We'll inevitably drift into conspiracy.

I also think the people that you want to get involved in a conversation relating to the above already have.
You are just re-hashing old conversations...

'Liberals are hypocritical. They believe women should be able to kill babies'

Erm, both Democrats and Republicans support abortion.
You want to claim 'libertarians' don't support abortion?
You think you have the right to prevent women from having an abortion?
(you might say: 'I don't want my tax dollars spent on abortions' - which is not the same as being for or against abortion)

'You mostly all say, I have a different definition, but no, I know what you guys believe. I just think it's obviously more hurtful than helpful! Esp since the government only plugs the gap, and nothing more. '

Be specific!

All that will happen is people will have a wide range of opinions - especially relating to abortions.
Abortions are not 'liberal'

Isn't it true that anybody earning more than 100k is in the 1% of the population?

'And OdonII, I posted my source for HR347 (The ACLU,) and you STILL sided with the government. You're a government sympathizer, a subject of the queens!'

And why would you think I would want to go through all that again?

I guess I'm not part of the conversation here anyway, as i'm not American.

To generalise and pigion-hole - you are 3/4s liberal...

 

I'm still curious as to who you are talking to..

political labels are generally stupid.

You should talk about specific ideas instead of attacking anyone who bothers to read your posts as a "liberal" and then spelling out exactly what they believe....

It just comes off as a giant rant and I really can't figure out who your posts are directed at

 

I have been talking about specific ideas. I'm not gonna spill my brains out.

It's not a giant rant, Liberals just 'think' I'm not talking about them, because they don't want to accept that their ideas of wanting to help people, will majorly hurt us.

Like I said, the "General Welfare" should be determined by a cost-benefit ratio, and we need to trim the fat. Liberal spending has (partially) caused the sequestration; Don't get me wrong, I blame Republicans too, but I blame Liberals more for believing in bigger government. That's just scary and tyrannical to me. I think the government is already too big and invasive. Obama is like a dictator, who could just demand one of us killed, and it's done. That's why I bring up Obama.

If you don't support him, maybe it's because you support Civil Liberties. When people do support him, I know it's useless to talk, because they listen to his rhetoric, and don't actually look into his policy.

I'm sick of people here saying I'm ranting because they don't understand it. I'm not ranting, I'm explaining my beliefs on government, and why I think Liberals are wrong. I didn't start with anyone, people started with me. I was being very civilized, and people got offended and tried biting my head off.

All I'm saying is that Liberalism does nothing to stop corporate lobbyist/bribery.

Liberalism supports increasing the size and scope of the Federal Government.

Liberalism heavily relies on government force, to impose taxes on the people, and 'distribute' our money for the 'greater good.'

But I'm also saying that American Liberalism, is feeding into the will of the Elite-class. Of course they want more government spending, cause government buys from their companies at insanely high rates. Furthermore, Liberals claim they're against war, but if your main objective is to "tax more," or just protest the war, you're not really accomplishing anything. Our Petro-Dollar (if-you-will) is based off nothing but bad debt, as Nixon suspended the transfer of gold to the dollar in the 70's. But in exchange for oil-yielding Middle Eastern countries taking our fiat dollar, we promised them indefinite military protection. So, without the petro dollar, we wouldn't be infinitely rich, like we pretend we are now. But I don't see Liberals trying to be responsible and live within our means either. Many of the greatest countries of the world collapsed (at least in part,) from devaluing their currency, and outspending themselves.


So, inadvertently, Liberals support the whole system; If we just keep the spending rolling, we're headed to collapse, anarchy, attacks etc.They have no explanation on how to fix any of this. So they get mad and say I'm ranting, or yelling. No, I'm not. I'm typing clearly and concisely, but you need something to get me back, cause you've painted me as your conservative enemy as soon as you picked this topic, so think about that also.


I'm trying to converse, then I get yelled at. Suddenly, when Liberals are attacked, political names are not important. But I know what you guys believe, and I presented a pretty good case on why I disagree. I re-read everything that was said, and I even toned it down a bit, cause I felt bad. But I wasn't the first one swearing, making 'wild' assertions or generalizing, but the Liberals who actually do do that, try to blame me. What a joke!

 

Upped your game on spelling. That's better.

 

Evidence, please...

Liberals:

They support higher taxes, more wasteful government programs, Drones/war.
They blindly follow obama no matter what he's saying/doing.
I've even heard Some Liberals express approval of World Government
(what is 'world government'?)

Liberals are hypocritical. They believe women should be able to kill babies.
You guys also support the murder of unborn babies.
There's no such thing as "freedom of choice," abortion is killing an unborn child.
A women doesn't have the "right" to take a human life, no matter how Liberals want to sugarcoat it. I would be just as justified to kill a random person off the street, as a woman would to kill an unborn child!
(question answered - people don't agree with YOU NOTHING to do with 'liberalism')

You all actually believe Government spending is going to get us out of the slump.
You want more government spending.

They say no one is trying to take my guns, and yet, they support taking guns away, with force and GUNS. It's so hypocritical, and wrong.'
(When you claim the UN is) (with force?)
Liberals no longer defend Civil Liberties.
(Was this an answer?: 'IF the ACLU actually is Liberal, they're still willing to contest Obama (unlike most of you.) You guys don't defend the Constitution, at all!')
Back to: 'Liberals no longer defend Civil Liberties' (evidence please)

You guys look incredibly stupid defending Liberalism as a whole.
(who is?)

At this point, I see no good in Liberalism.
(although you have many 'liberal' thoughts...mmmm)

Ok. It is hard though cause you have classic liberals and Neo-liberals, then you have democratic liberals.
(yet you just say 'liberal' all of the time...mmmm)

Liberals desire total government control

That will do...


Imho, you are not really talking to anybody...like has been said:
Sorry but all I see in your rants is unsubstantiated accusations, name calling, misdirection and outright lies but above you display a simplistic, generalistic and rather naive view of the world.

 

Could you explain UK 'liberalism', please. Thank you. Perhaps African 'Liberalism', too. Thank You.

 

World Government is the UN, it is all the separate governments of the world, who do the bidding of, multi-national corporations which control the worlds resources.

Also you do support World Government, by not doing anything to oppose it. If Liberals were in charge, they wouldn't address that at all. In fact, they wouldn't address any critical issues.

Firstly, you morphed a bunch of different things together. A couple of those we're in responses to people being assholes. You chopped it all up.


Secondly, I don't give a fuck if people agree with me or not. Murderers probably don't think murdering's wrong.That child is an individual, and should have rights of their own. Liberals suger-coat it and call it a "fetus," but, many women regret it at some point, or go through PTSD afterward.

There's no lie there.:juggle: Come on man! Are you on Xanax or something? Fading out over the pond?

That's not the UN; That's Obama, and many Liberals agenda. Maybe not all of them, but MOST. Totally true, no misinformation; unless you all suddenly decided you're not as Liberal as you thought. But Liberalism supports all that.

I said IF the ACLU was Liberal. It's not however www.aclu.org/faqs

"The ACLU has no political affiliations and makes no test of individuals."

Many Liberals support Obama, that's damning evidence. Obama has violated most of the first 10 Amendments with new laws. Many more Liberals also want more restrictions on the second amendment.

Everyone who was being stupid right away. Eggsprog was saying he don't give a fuck about Americans and their guns, then Faelix was trying to play it off that I was being nasty, and I really wasn't!

I mean as a whole, I don't think it would work. I've made plenty of legitimate arguments, as to why I disagree with the concept of Liberalism, and it's by ignored by everyone of you, (except for 1 or two here and there that will actually converse.) I'm trying not to deal with the ego centric morons here, but it looks like I'm out-numbered this time. So I'm just laughing.

Newer Liberals and Obama supporters do have crucial things in common, and neither of them address the real problems.

Read my new post. That's the last damn time I'm explaining it. Idk why I try. If you believe the Liberal-Media's nonsense, obviously, what I'm saying
is way over your heads.

 

I've never been to the UK. You and Balbus would be the only Left Wing people I know from the UK. I also hear other people say your government is totally corrupted too; I can't judge, I've never been there, idk the will of those individuals. I'm speaking on behalf of American principles, so for me to tell the UK to be like America, would be ignorant.

 

They support higher taxes, more wasteful government programs, Drones/war.
They blindly follow obama no matter what he's saying/doing.

So, 193 countries are all governed by liberals?

Apparently they are in charge.

I know I did. They were all your thoughts on abortion. Are you saying you don't believe all of the things that you said?

That's a nice way to converse/have an adult conversation, isn't it?

Maybe people are just thinking: 'I don't give a fuck what you think.'

If people on the right, left and people inbetween are not apposed to abortion - why are you labeling it as 'liberal' or 'liberals think....'?
If that is 'liberal' and I disagree you, that makes me 'liberal'?
That's fine, then I'm 'liberal' ...


I don't see the world ending!
Why do I need to 'defend' abortion?
At the end of the day 99.9% of the time it has 0% to do with you.

I said 'evidence, please'.

I'll quote you when you say the UN is after your guns.
You said 'they' who are 'they'?
What 'force' are you talking about?

You said 'liberals' not 'many liberals'.

That's not really answering the question.

Obviously if you added together everything YOU deemed 'liberal' it probably would not work.
You identified a couple of 'versions' of 'liberalism' and conceded that you have some 'liberal' thoughts (or you agree with liberals on certain points).
I don't think it is possible for one person to hold the entire range of 'liberal' thinking (however you define it).
So you end up just saying everything you disagree with is 'liberal' (pretty much)...or 'the Republicans are no better'.
You've answered your own questions and made statements with out any evidence - hence me asking for some evidence.

Nobody is going to waste their time 'defending' all the points I quoted if they don't actually believe it is true - why should they?

I'm sure on one or two issues people will respond, but you've thrown out a multitude of points about 'liberals' and nobody I can see has said anything similar in this thread.

Not really an answer...

I've read them... I said: 'evidence, please' - not more of your opinions.

 

Your mom's a liberal.

 

Kinda, I mean i've communicated this to you before.

The tone in which you use the word "Liberal" is too broad.

It seems to me that when you say something like "Liberals want ___ and are ___" it really implies that you're talking about REALLY FAR LEFT Liberals.

But the tone you strike, the grammar you use, also feels like your attacking centerist Liberals like myself, who on a specific issue like say healthcare, feel the federal government has some right to intervene, given the context of how healthcare spending was eating a huge fraction of GDP. (It was affecting interstate commerce, businesses had trouble controlling healthcare costs, and were asking employees to pay them back $ for their employee insurance).

You treat your audience here, as if we are unaware or not smart about how in U.S. History and Political Theory (since the beginning) both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party have pro-business stances and have benefited pro-business stances.

The Democratic party has been marginally better at hitting big business with penalty regulations when disasters (workplace or otherwise) happen.

But you have to understand that those who get what your saying ,but still end up voting Democratic do so because they see those marginal penalty regulations as BETTER or the lesser of two evils than the Republican Party who relaxes regulation across the board, and gets invested in moral issues (abortion and gay marriage).

---

I agree that one of those 4 things is probably gonna happen to the USA, if spending doesn't get cut, but there's a smart way to do it gradually, and the Republicans can choose if they want another area to cut spending besides Obamacare, but their fixated on it.

And the Republican Right (and to an extent Libertarians as well given that they caucus with the Republicans on this issue for the same reasons/premise) is in a hangup over the concept of a Mandate, which is a position they held in the 80's and early 90's when Hillary Clinton.

Democrats already see Obamacare as a compromise, given that what they originally wanted was a single-payer type system, that's why they won't compromise again on Obamacare this time around.

 

I think you might find Balbus and I are not anywhere near each other on the political front... I'm somrtimes 'slightly left' sometimes 'slightly right' generally 'somewhere in the centre'.
Obviously, as witnessed here, it also depends how others perceive you.

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=7590895&postcount=22

Try it, see where you come out...

Isn't 'liberalism' 'liberalism'? You think that just because somebody might be American, they will fall in line with what you think 'American liberalism' is?

Now you are throwing in 'American principles'?

O.O

Could you please refer to your version of 'liberal' as 'American liberal' - ?

'I also hear other people say your government is totally corrupted too'

No, this is not true.

This is perhaps the level of understanding you can acquire before asking questions of another.

 

There is not enough rep I can give you. :love:

 

I'm not attacking who Liberals are as people; I'm sure most of them, really have good intentions. But you know the saying "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." It's not that I oppose healthcare. I'm sure a lot of Americans need it, including me. However, I'm opposed to the initiation of government force. Including stealing one's private property. I feel like people bust their ass for 7.50 an hour, and they deserve to keep mostly all of their money. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't abolish taxes or government help immediately. I think the "Fair tax," should/could be the only tax, if we had a balanced and small federal government. On the other hand, Local governments would be able to take the place of federal programs, and many programs would still exist on a local level.

On the subject of using "liberal" too broadly, Idk what to say really. I think I offend people, and they refuse to see their beliefs in that light. It's not that I think Liberalism is totally wrong; I identify with them on the drug war and, other issues. The problem to me is, even healthcare and humanitarian spending, is liable to throw us off the "fiscal cliff" economists are talking about. Plus, government behaves like children; They start losing the game, and the grab all their toys and run away. Even with a democrat in charge, the first funding that will be cut is humanitarian, because it's corporations supporting the war spending. But, corperations also support Obamacare.

So, with Liberals like you, (although I respect you more than Liberals who don't want to converse at all,) I still think overspending is the problem. Also, a couple of my post was saying all Liberals, but I didn't mean that. I just get defense when I feel I'm being attacked. But I'm not attacked over my views, instead they diss on me personally; which makes me think they have nothing of substance to say anyway.

I'm not saying you're not smart. I just see a majority of Liberals blaming corporations, and not government, (which is the entity which gives them power.) I just believe you inadvertently support it, by supporting more government spending. I agree war spending is bad, that doesn't make your type of theft any better. Also, major programs the Liberals support which are government entities, I do not, because they waste our money, and get just enough done to save face; Despite the trillions in waste. In that regard, the whole Liberal structure doesn't address an alternative to big businesses controlling the government. They want to make t illegal again, but government was taking bribes before corporate personhood.

Also, like I said, our money is only worth something due to military. That's why 1/2 our budget goes into military. I don't see Liberals attempting to un-suspend gold; they still want the fake money, and the benefits that come from it, but not the war. But I'm saying, to support that fake money, you're in essence supporting the suspension of gold, and military state that followed. The thing is, I'm not generalizing people. Economically, Liberalism who kill our country. We're going to hit the cliff either way, and outspend ourselves(imo, and in the opinion of many economists.)

How? With regulations? I'd argue that some regulations are put in place by big business, to harm their smaller competitors. I'd also argue that programs such as the EPA, FDA and, CIA are used as tools for big business; The FDA says GMO's are totally healthy to eat, yet it's illegal to sue Monsanto if something does happen. Our CIA is used for pre emptive war. They make ragime changes and, they're never considered "boots on the ground," even if they're on a military operation. Moreover, the EPA fines people, $10,000 per day, for having the wrong tree in their yard.(or, having to vegitation or plants in desert areas like SLC. )

I think Liberals want to help, but they want to think government helps. I see more destruction, immorality and, lies in government than anything. Also, with Obama's passing the NDAA, HR347, NDRP, CISPA etc; If 'liberals' still support him, they're not really Liberal. The whole basis of Liberalism is supposed to mean Civil Liberties, (which Obama obviously doesn't give a shit about.)

Because people are overtaxed already. We we're meant to be a country free of overtaxation, and government tyranny in our lives. We did it, because Brittan was brutalizing protestors, stomping into peoples homes over victimless 'crimes,' taking away their weapons and, overtaxing them. This is most the reason for our revolt. All of which our government does today. We need to help one another get through problems, but helping through government isn't truly helping, as it is hurting the people who work their whole lives, save money and, try to accomplish their own version of the American dream. But instead, they're working extra time for government and, all the money they save, has been devalued due to the printing. I don't think Liberalism deals with these core problems, and therefore I don't see it as a viable alternative, to even republicans.

For the record, Libertarians aren't against gay marriage and, many don't oppose abortion. Morals vary, and I find it morally wrong (others do not.)

You say you agree that we need to cut spending, but you support a program that's going to skyrocket prices for everyone. I believe the middle class of this country is shrinking due to overspending/overtaxing. You can say you support whatever you like, but in reality, Liberalism still tips the scale in favor of the elite, and just sets up "safety nets" for those totally incomeless. But there's middle class families now struggling to pay bills, even with 2 partys working full-time.


There's nothing wrong with wanting to help people; but doing it through force, is helping some, at the expense of everyone else.

With all that said, I don't think Liberals are horrible, stupid or all the same. In converse though, the parts which Liberalism supports generally, is what I was directing. There is great things about Liberalism; I just don't think you want to see the bigger picture economically or politically.

It also bothers me many or most Liberals do think Obama is "lesser of two evils" whereas, I see the man who could kill an innocent 16 year old, to be one of the biggest evils on the planet. I think Obama will be seen as the Second Nixon, in the history books, for all his dirty tricks and lies. With that, I need to go rest and wind down a bit.

OdonII-I'll reply tomo.

 

25

You know what you remind me of one of those people that stand around on street corners crying ‘the end is nigh’

You’re not bothered about presenting a coherent or rational argument you just want to shout at all the sinners.