Just wondering..

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Disarm, Jan 19, 2005.

  1. Disarm

    Disarm Member

    Ok. So when people say "jesus died for your sins" or just "jesus died for you", do they actually believe jesus sat there with a pen and paper and thought over every single person that ever did and ever will exist, consider their sins, and say "what the hey, why not die for them too?". How long would that take anyway, at the moment there's at least 6 billion on this planet, does he have a filter? Like, does he automatically exclude those who haven't/won't sin? That might save some time.

    He could like, further filter our sins by commandment "Well there's 10346382 murders, 1903573812 rapes etc etc....I can handle 1938725389739485723987549123784293478 sins."

    But then he didn't die for ME, he died for my sins so he'd have to consider who I am as a person. Maybe he filtered people too- "well, there's 1298498293834059802374023 smiles, 38954802398340238 depressed people, 485702375423498759347 kind people...etc etc....they're worth dying for, they can even out the 1938725389739485723987549123784293478 sins"

    Maybe that's why we don't hear of him for 30 years of his life..maybe he was a countin and a thinkin. Maybe jesus was just more efficient and thought "I don't care what people do after my death. I think they're worth it even if they spend their entire lives sinning and defaming and spitting on my portrait and saying bad things about my dad oops I mean me because we're a trinity"

    But then I think, ok so jesus was jewish, so in jew cases he would have died for all of the breakings of the 613 mitzvot, and for gentiles the 7 noahdic (sp?) commandments. Would that have taken more time to sort or did his filter do that too? I hope his filter didn't run off windows 95, that was a bad year.

    But what if jesus followed the 10 commandments? Is it a sin even if we didn't know we had to follow those ones? What about all the people sticking to the fine print and all 613? Would they get pissed? Would he still use the noahdic commandments for gentiles or do christians believe he should die for christian commandments broken by gentiles? What about Islamic commandments? Would he judge Muslims by those or just the noahdic or the 10? Would he consider muslims affiliate christians and judge them on the 10, or just gentiles and have to die for their sin of following islam?

    Jesus musta thought a lot. I'm just wondering. Has anyone else thought about this or just taken it for granted our sins are forgiven?
     
  2. juggla

    juggla Member

    well im a agnostic now, former catholic. the catholic church views christs sacrafice as perpetually happening everyday through the sacrament of the eucharist. most protestants view christ died one time on the cross and that one act was done for the salvation of all those who believe in him past present and future.
     
  3. Epiphany

    Epiphany Copacetic

    "Even the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matthew 10:30). The Lord knows us before we are born. Jesus does not have to count. He already is aware. When he first gathered his disciples, they were quite shocked in the beginning when he told them things about themselves before they had even encountered him. Of course, in the very beginning, they were unaware that he was God on earth.

    No one on the the face of this earth is without sin. We are born with the human nature of sin, hence, the need for salvation. All commandments, everything Jesus said, it applies to each and every single person in this world. No one is exempt from it. The reason we have missionaries is for the gospel of Christ to be taught in remote locations.

    Jesus was Jewish in nationality. Jesus is God, God is Jesus.... Jesus was not Jewish in faith. If he was, he would be worshipping himself.

    Actually, Jesus was in the synagogues speaking to temple leaders at the tender age of twelve. In fact, he was gone for three days until Mary and Joseph found him.
     
  4. atropine

    atropine Member

    1- thats your interpretation, as with many others. but millions of christians would disagree.
    2- feel like proving that jesus was jewish in faith?..
     
  5. Epiphany

    Epiphany Copacetic

    1.Yes, millions of false Christians around the world would agree because they have no concept of Christ. You can look at the post on Trinity for Biblical proof that Jesus and God are one.

    2. Prove that Jesus was Jewish in faith? I said he was not.
     
  6. mynameiskc

    mynameiskc way to go noogs!

    taken for granted, really. some people take less time to think about shit than others do. ;)
     
  7. dutch_diciple

    dutch_diciple Member

    "the catholic church views christs sacrafice as perpetually happening everyday through the sacrament of the eucharist."

    is that true, is that official catholic teaching? Or is it something that appears in SOME catholic churches?

    For I've been among some catholic missionary's which were so-called 'evangelical catholics' and they stated NOT to believe in the above (they do believe in the catholic perspective on last supper: the transubstantiation or whatever you write it but not repeating of calvary).
     
  8. Burbot

    Burbot Dig my burdei

    i must beg the differ here with Epiphany...Jesus was an Isralie if im not mistaken...and im pretty sure He was jewish, as much as He preached against the hypocracy arising in that time [much like the hypocricy in Christianity now] but He was still jewish [or i think so]
     
  9. matthew

    matthew Almost sexy

    I personaly think in a ever perpetuating idea .. the interpretation of this and other teachings is altered to fit. I believe the Bible is a thesis (jesuss) put together by 'man' because the general public were skeptical of just hearing so needed to read..any thing written down can't realy convey or be 'perfect' so take the words how you wish.

    Personaly i think jesus had a religous struggle with his upbringing ..went away for some years came back with THE most groundbreaking and diffrent a concept, that it rocked the foundations of everything his original religeon followed.. it is the attempt imho to carve a truly awesome persons inner thoughts into a narrative that can be digested and understood..but still be as vague as to be able to be altered (in its meaning) to be always right..The church wants jesuss thought to there own.. thats what i think :&

    As for dying for us.. as God is actualy jesuss mind and inner monologue .. he died for his own sins .. not ours.. his message was far too powerful.
     
  10. Epiphany

    Epiphany Copacetic

    Jesus is the Lord. He was not just a man. If Jesus was Jewish in faith, he would be have been in a temple praying to himself. Jesus cannot have a faith when he IS the faith.
     
  11. juggla

    juggla Member

    jesus was circumcized, he preached in the temple at jerusalem, his disiples refered to him as rabbi, he killed a bunch of pigs by having them run of a cliff because of jewish dietary laws, jesus was a typical jewish name 2000 years ago.

    jesus prayed to god in the garden of geshemeny(s/p?), he prayed to god alot in the gosples(why would he pray to himself?), jesus met god at his transfiguration(could he decend from heaven to met and counsel himself?), when being crucified he said he was going to sit on the right hand of god(but you said he was god).
     
  12. juggla

    juggla Member

    well there not catholics then, catholics are suppose to adhear to all church law, and confirm to its interpretation of scripture and its traditions. if the 'evangelical catholics' believe they can interpret scripture separatly from the church at rome their not roman catholics, there protestants, thats why the protestant reformation happened in the first place it was about sola scriptura(bible only, no traditon) and the abilty for the individual to interpret the bible.

    again ill state for the record im former catholic, now a atheist.
     
  13. dutch_diciple

    dutch_diciple Member

    ok, but could you get me some resource on that, something from some catholic source, a prove that this: "the catholic church views christs sacrafice as perpetually happening everyday through the sacrament of the eucharist." is official catholic church teaching? Thanx.
     
  14. dutch_diciple

    dutch_diciple Member

    "jesus was circumcized, he preached in the temple at jerusalem, his disiples refered to him as rabbi, he killed a bunch of pigs by having them run of a cliff because of jewish dietary laws, jesus was a typical jewish name 2000 years ago.

    jesus prayed to god in the garden of geshemeny(s/p?), he prayed to god alot in the gosples(why would he pray to himself?), jesus met god at his transfiguration(could he decend from heaven to met and counsel himself?), when being crucified he said he was going to sit on the right hand of god(but you said he was god)."

    I think this is something for the thread on the trinity.
     
  15. WayfaringStranger

    WayfaringStranger Corporate Slave #34

    well to get back to the original question, i think that jesus did not count the total sins before he died. and he was certainly Jewish, hence the title king of the jews.
    the idea behind his sacrafice is somthing like this . ..
    god originally expected us to be perfect. the devil tempts us. when jesus was on earth he saw this temptation and realized that there was no way any more than a handful of people could go through life being perfect with all the temptation and evil things they had to witness. so he went and took the punishment for all those sins, to give the oppourtunity for god to keep around more than just the handful of perfect people.
    this by no way means that every one is "saved" or will be "saved", but the possibility is there for everyone now, if they chose to accept it. and no amount of going to church or praying or saying you are christian makes you saved. you have to live christianity, not just talk it.
     
  16. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Senior Member

    The only way that I would agree that "Jesus died for you" would be in a very loose symbolic sense. The guy (he was just a man) was wise beyond his years and was way ahead of his time. What set him apart from his fellows was his courage to speak his mind no matter what. He died for not keeping his mouth shut, which paved the way for modern freedom of thought and expression, albeit in a very ironic way.
     
  17. juggla

    juggla Member

    [size=+1]Paragraph 1382 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church[/size][size=+2]

    [/size][size=+1]"The Mass is at the same time, and inseparably, the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated and the sacred banquet of communion with the Lord's body and blood. But the celebration of the Eucharist sacrifice is wholly directed toward the intimate union of the faithful with Christ through communion. To receive communion is to receive Christ himself who has offered himself for us."[/size]
    [size=+1][/size]
    [size=+1][/size]
    [size=+1][/size]
    [size=+1]The following quote is from Paragraph 100 in the Catholic Catechism:
    "The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him."


    [/size][size=+1]

    [/size]
     
  18. atropine

    atropine Member

    1. all those "false" christians may also consider you to be the false christian. youre belief is yours and others have their own. i thought people who were completely ignorant towards what religion is correct were bad enough but people like you are also ignorant towards which christains are true or not.

    2. typo! give me proof that he wasnt jewish.

    Proof jesus was jewish. Jesus has been proven to be an essene, which is a jewish doomsday sect. this is why some of the dead sea scrolls were so important- they documented the essenic way of life- and thus we have a clearer idea of jesus's beliefs and stance. Come on. Really. He's your messiah and you don't know the basics about him?

    So jesus had no faith? He was preaching out of someone elses holy book just for the sake of it?
     
  19. Epiphany

    Epiphany Copacetic

    Alright, look at it this way. You have a head. You have a torso. You have arms and legs. All of these parts make up one whole body. In the same way, all three manifestations make up one God.

    Now, in order for God to experience exactly what we experience, he had to become full human. As Christ, he was completely human. He bled when he was struck, he ate when he was hungry, he worked as a carpenter by trade. He still had healing power, yet, he was man.

    When God sent spoke to Moses by the burning bush, he did not leave Heaven, come down, and speak. The burning bush was a manifestation of God. When Jesus came down to earth, he came in full human form, Heaven was not empty.

    1 John 5:20, speaking of Christ says, "He is the true God and eternal life." If Jesus is the true God, and God is the true God, that would mean that God is more than one. However, we know that he is not because God said, "There are no other gods besides me." That illustrates that Jesus is God.

    "Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angles, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up into glory." ( 1 Timothy 3:16) Again... this says the mystery of godliness. However, it was speaking of Christ. They are one in the same.

    God coming to us in Spirit form (as the Holy Spirit) is so that we may possess him inside our very soul.

    For God to connect with us he had to become human. For him to live inside of us, he first had to die and become Spirit.
     
  20. Cerberus

    Cerberus Member

    Why does god need to become like we are to experience what we experience? God is God and should know or "he" wouldn't be God?

    Please stop putting limitations on God, you make a supreme being seem small.
     

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