Jesus was sold out

I am usually as skeptical as you are regarding website documentation. However, I searched around a little bit. Regarding the medical facts of crucifixion, all those accounts that I gave you seem to be accurate. There is little that I found that disagrees or contradicts with the websites I posted. If the crucifixion of Christ really happened, then the websites posted are probably VERY accurate as to what happened biologically to Christ. I have not heard of a medical doctor ever disagreeing with the probable cause of death or the medical details of a crucifixion.

Regarding the gall/myhrr/sour wine issue, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon states that "The ancients used to infuse myrrh into wine to give it a more agreeable fragrance and flavour." As such, it is entirely possible that the wine already had myhrr in it (for the Romans) and, as a mockery, they put gall in the wine before they gave it to Jesus. Kind of like spitting on someone's food in front of them and then giving it to them. He, like we would, declined to drink.

Later on, someone (possibly a disciple) put some sour wine on a sponge (or sop) and gave it to Christ and He drank. It does look like He was offered a drink twice though. Once at the beginning (by the Romans), and later, after several hours (possibly by a disciple, or perhaps, the Roman centurion who later exclaimed "Surely this was the Son of God").

 

That sounds like a good answer as to the different versions. I like it, first the soldier, then later someone else, maybe a disciple gives a second one. Cool.


It is still my view that He was not on the cross long enough to die from that alone, nor am I convinced the piercing was fatal.
The fact that immediately following the second sop, he dropped his head and passed out (or died), is interesting.

 

the thing is, if its not in the bible, and with no examination of his body, how can they claim the exact part of his body where he was pierced..

 

Atropine, that is my point exactly. How indeed can they tell?

It is conjecture, I would say.

 

Well... I am not a doctor, but if I was told that someone was wounded on the side of the neck and that blood literally sprayed out in copious quantities, I would expect that the jugular vein or a large artery had been damaged. My not having a body there doesn't mean that I cannot make a reasonable conclusion based on my extremely limited knowledge. A doctor doesn't need a body to draw reasonable conclusions. Based on the knowledge that we have regarding how crucifixion worked, its effects on the human body, our current knowledge of anatomy and physiology, the events surrounding crucifixion (i.e. the liklihood of hypovolemic shock resulting from scourging) and other ancient tortures, and the events recorded in the New Testament, is it too strange to believe that modern day doctors may have a pretty accurate view of the anatomical effects of the spear? In short, is there another way to explain blood and water pouring from a wound in the side (anywhere from the hips to the shoulders)? Fluid in the lungs perhaps? Possibly, but that would also mean that Christ was dead...

It may be conjecture, but it is conjecture that fits the facts far more than the idea of Christ being drugged or unconcious.

Also note, any drug that would have left Him in a death-like state or coma would probably have killed Him. It would have to be incredibly potent for such a small amount to affect Him and given the other trauma His body sustained, the likelihood of survival is practically nil. Ask a pharmacist or toxicologist. Are there drugs that exist that would have put Him in a coma almost immediately without killing Him (given His exhaustion and hypovolemic shock)? If such a drug exists, did it exist then? Is is possible to make naturally or must it be synthesized in a lab?

I don't know, but there are definitely people in this world who do. Check it out for yourselves, I know I will.

 

I think I saw a movie in which a drug was used to induce a coma like state and then later the person woke up. What movie was that?

 

romeo and juliet? hehe..

on csi last night.. a certain snake venom caused heavy paralysis and cardioshit that made doctors think the guy was dead.. not sure

 

Yeah it was romeo and juliet

 

Just to make sure... you guys aren't actually trying to support the swoon/drugged theory using works of fiction, are you?

 

im neutral on the theory

 

Well... I am not a doctor, but if I was told that someone was wounded on the side of the neck and that blood literally sprayed out in copious quantities, I would expect that the jugular vein or a large artery had been damaged. My not having a body there doesn't mean that I cannot make a reasonable conclusion based on my extremely limited knowledge.

 

I was using that analogy to demonstrate that a body is not necessary to determine a likely cause of death given a specific set of circumstances. In this case, we know:

the general length of a Roman spear head
that Christ was stabbed in the side
that blood and a clear substance poured out of the wound
that Christ had suffered a Roman flogging and was therefore suffering from massive bloodloss (hypovolemic shock)
the general effects of crucifixion on the human body
the anatomy of humans
how the human body reacts to stab wounds

Given the above, is it much of a stretch to have medical doctors predict, based on the evidence where a wound would have to be in order to meet the above list of facts. Mainly, we know that He was stabbed in the side and that blood and "water" flowed from the wound. There are not many places where that would happen in the body. The lungs and the heart are primary subjects.

Let me address each conclusion separately. You said that the length of time makes a difference? He should have lived LONGER? You seem to overestimate the robostness of the human body. Most people took a long time to die when crucified, but most had not been flogged first (a lot of people couldn't survive a flogging). At the time of His crucifixion, He had also been awake for more than 24 (possibly 48) hours. Given exhaustion and blood loss, the "speed" of His death (only several hours) is not unreasonable.
How does the lack of broken legs indicate that Christ was not dead but merely swooned? They didn't break His legs because He was ALREADY DEAD.
You again lean on the sop. But there is still the problem of the drug. What drug could be given to a dying man that would make him appear as dead but not actually kill him (given that he is being crucified, suffering from hypovolemic shock, and exhaustion)? I have heard you and others say that the essenes were master herbalists. Well, even if they DID want to help Him (unlikely), then what kind of herbal mixture did they use?
The empty tomb speaks to His resurrection as well as (or better than) any other theory.
The disciples encountered a well, fully healed, living, breathing, walking, talking, never-been-better Christ three days after His crucifixion. There is no way to account for that with the swoon theory. After the torture and supposed execution, He would be in no shape to commend the disciples or inspire them to the point where they would die saying that He was God.
Here's another thing, the swoon theory implies that the Romans improperly crucified Christ. Why? Because of the way that crucifixion work. If one is curcified, it places tension on the muscles which are required for exhalation. So you can breath in but not out. In order to breath, the victim would have to place pressure on the nails in his feet in order to raise up so that he could relieve the tension on the muscles. He could exhale, take another gulp of oxygen and then relax to relieve the agonizing pain in his feet. So, if Christ swooned, He would be unable to relieve the tension and would therefore be unable to breath. How long can the human body go without oxygen? Minutes? Christ was up there for a long time AFTER His death. And that entire time, He was unable to breath. So, even IF He swooned and IF the spear didn't puncture a vital organ, He still has to hold His breath for a very long time.
The swoon theory simply does not hold up under scrutiny.

 

The unconsciousness causing asphyxiation is a good point, thank you for pointing that out.


I don't know how serious the flogging was, or how much fluid was released by the spear, or whether the myrrh sop could have had ether or something similar. I don't know any of it for sure, it is just my proposed possibility. If I am wrong, that is okay by me, it wouldn't be the first time. lol