Israel would have much better prospects for peace if they would get out of Gaza and the West Bank. Their idiotic policy of importing Jewish settlers to these areas has made them less secure.
For one, Israel is an important logistical ally of the U.S. in the mid East, they're our only genuine ally there. And the Israel/Arab conflict has been going on for about 50-60 years, not 4,000. The Jews showed up about 4,000 years ago and displaced a few nomadic tribes. Then Israel's only enemies were the various empires (Greek, Roman, Babylon, etc.) that saw Juda as an important strategic and economic location, and nothing else. The "holy war" as we see it now is fairly new to the region.
Actually Max. Maggie is right.they have been fighting for about 4000 years...and the major heat of their fighting has been going on about 1000 years since the births of Islam and Christianity. All 3 powerhouse religions stake a claim of Holiness in Israel. When the Crusades happened...Israel found itself in a hotbed of war..with both the Ottoman Empire and European Christian Empire fighting over it...the Jews were caught in the middle only to be slaughtered and enslaved.yet again for like the 3rd time since being released from Egypt. The point is...is that these people have been killing one another for a good chunk of recorded history. AND..not to mention...for the 100th time..they arent the only country in the middle of civil war...especially a civil war who's roots are religious. and they wont be the last country with a bloody existance. I agree that we should leave ourselves out of the Israeli conflict.I'm pissed that my tax dollars are being put forth to that fighting.I'm not an Israeli or Palestinian.I have no emotional attachment to that place.I'm not religious..so if the Rock of Gibraltor gets blasted to pieces...oops. I am sick of US dollars going to any part of that..and I'm sick of Americans getting killed because our religious government uses our money to support genocide and facilitate another country's civil war. I'm sick of people supporting this war on either side because some arrogant Holy man says that in order to protect a Holy site...blood of the enemy must flow. I'm sick of it.sick of it all.Fuck that region of the world. If the Israelis and Palestinians wanna act like a bunch of troglodite barbarians...let them.cut them off from the rest of the world and let them duke it out.see how they can cope without cries of support and money. the rest of us will finally be working on how to fix our own damn problems. $8 billion a year goes to Israel.$8 fucking billion!!! that $8 billion could be used to help our ailing schools.put kids through college...feed the homeless..build jobs..it could be used to create and mainstream oil-alternative power resources. I cannot believe that the American people have not stood up in full force and DEMANDED that our money not be spent aiding and embedding 2 groups of people who have nothing else to do but kill each other. Fuck fuck fuckity fuck fuck fuck!!!
8 billion eh? Damn. I'm all for supporting Israel (they're our only genuine ally in the middle East right now, and we need those) but they need to cut back on that.
It's a myth that there has always been fighting in Israel/Palestine. Off and on throughout history, there have been conflicts, but it hasn't been a nonstop bloodbath. The current round of madness started when the modern state of Israel was founded after WWII.
Well, we've also been chummy with Turkey, though Turkey generally tries to distance itself from the Middle East, and I don't blame them.
Actually we only give about $3 bn to Israel, perhaps still $3 billion to much. http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html How exactly is Israel useful for "logistical" reasons?
Just a word I picked up somewhere. I looked up the definition, and realized it has nothing to do with why we're in Israel . Stupid me.
WHO do you think the ancestors of the Palestinians are? Just some "wandering tribes." Yeah, and they have been at it since then. The PEOPLE in that area, even before they called Israel a "State" and Palestine one, have been fighting, in one way or an other, in one guise or an other, in that area since Abraham threw Hagar and Ishmael (the beleived "great great grand father of Islam") into the Wilderness. That was about 4,000 years ago. It is an ancient feud, with many faces, and many people. It isn't the business of the USA, we have enough to worry about and spend our money on.
I didn't mean any disrespect, but that's what they were.The Jews were just a wandering tribe until that period of time as well. You can't "defeat" nomads, they just go set up shop somewhere else. And what about a true ally in one of the most unsecure regions in the world? Is that our business, or worth spending our money on?
Taken from End Time Magazine: "Confirmation of the Covenant" - (the covenant is the Jewish temple that is awaiting approval) If the UN signs on to the disenagement plan, then Irael will proceed with the approval of the nations of the world. Remeber, the prophecies indicate tht the world community will confirm Israel's right to the land that God covenanted to Abraham. When they do, the final seven years of Armageddon will begin." "Some people believe that Israel's unilateral disengagement could break the present stalemate in the peace process and create conditions that would allow the eventual implementing of the world community's Roadmap. Under the Roadmap, all outstanding issues between Palastinians and Israelis are to be permanetly resolved. The most sensitive of these issues is control of the Temple Mount and the desire of Jews to worship there. Whether Irael's disengagement plans appears to be a success or the peace proceeds in another way, the status of the Temple Mount will eventually have to be dealt with. Is is the general consensus that the only realistic solution to the Temple Mount, which both Muslims and Jews consider holy, is to share it. It is generally believed that such a sharing arragement will have to be done under international supervision, meaning the UN".
Why should Israel GIVE it back? They won it in wars in which they were attacked first. Do you honestly think that would solve the problem anyway?
They should give it back because there are 3.5 million Palestinians there who have no rights as citizens. Israel would be much safer (and better respected internationally) if they withdrew and stopped importing settlers there from around the world.
Although sadly it's often the case, wars shouldn't be about land-grabbing. At least, it's a bad policy. Think of France and Germany's historical scuffles over Alsace-Lorraine, and India and Pakistan playing tug-of-war of sorts with Kashmir. It leads simply to endless cycles of violent conflict. HuckFinn's right, Israel would be making a huge diplomatic leap if they gave substantial land back to the Palestinians.
There is a difference.. France and Germany now lead a european coalition of states. I also believe that India and Pakistan can find a way to peace in the longer term.. by sorting out the disputed land that is Kashmir. However in Israel/Palestine we have two groups both contesting the same land.. both would insist that it is their rightful heritage. And both have religions which fanatics would die defending.. all this is a very potent mix that lends itself to a war that does not appear to have any real solution. Does anyone think that if the Palestinians get their hands on a nuke that they would not try and set it off in Israel.. and does anyone really see Israel backing down from a retaliation? My (radical solution) would be to line up all the fanatics on both sides and put them out of their misery and then leave the pacifists to find a solution. However that's being naive.. I can only hope that this war of attrition will lead to both nations suing for peace as the losses become greater AND I don't see that happening.. at least not in my lifetime.
The problem goes back much further than 50 years. The land used to belong to Turkey. The Brits promised it to the Arabs if they rebelled against the Turks, but put not your trust in kings, cuz when the Arabs did what the Brits asked the Brits gave it to others. The land was not chock-a-block full of Palestinians at the time. Outside Jerusalem and the big cities, it was only barren land. The Palestinians arrived when Israel made jobs and irrigation. Yasser Arafat is an Egyptian whose grandmother came from Jerusalem. Most Palestinians outside Jerusalem and the big cities have similar pedigrees. Palestinian ladies would have had to have been popping out babies like bunny rabbits to produce the Palestinian population of today from the Palestinian population recorded in the last Turkish census. The Intifada started as a labor action, not a political demand for a state. The Palestinians wanted more money and better working conditions. Israel, playing the part of a union-busting management, refused. America subsidized it. Follow the money. What Palestinians want is wealth redistribution, a piece of the action, not abject poverty in their own state. One state or two, the problem is the money. The Israelis got it, the Arabs want more of it. If wealth and power were distributed evenly, it wouldn't matter if there were one state or two.
Well, that's why I said "historical" scuffles. Of course they don't fight over it anymore. As for India and Pakistan, they're not far behind Israel vs. Palestine for most world-threatening conflict. Pakistan's a Islamist republic turned de facto military dictatorship, and India is a shaky democracy that's had its hands full trying to hold itself together, as it's a mishmash of diverse Indian sub-cultures, quite a few of whom don't like each other (Pakistan actually serves as a convenient hated enemy, giving India some much sought-for national unity).
Well, I didn't really read the whole post, but I'm all for Israel existing. However, I don't agree with the way they're handling it right now, but Israel has the right to exist more than Palestine does, IMO. God actually promised them that land (what religious zionists believe.) Now I know the Palestinians have lived there for a long time, but I think they have more options IF they were to leave than the Israelis have, and we have to realize why Israel was founded in the first place. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the politics of the current Israeli government, that doesn't take away it's right to exist. The Palestinians are only in concentrated areas though--it's not like they're EVERYWHERE. Israel needs to get itself out of the West Bank and Gaza strip, though. A very interesting book to read is Dershowitz's "The Case For Israel"
