Is truth a constant through time?

Children.



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Playing is an action. Creativity is an action. Rules are for those who will not accept the resonsibility for their actions. Not cannot, or does not, but will not out of a refusal to accepting that all actions have a consequence.

Children play. Grown ups play. Existence is a play in itself, as is Birth and Death. All these are a result of actions, of which actions are a result of ignorance.

Seeing is an action. Hearing is an action. Smelling is an action. Tasting is an action. Feeling (tactilely) is an action. Thought is an action.

All action is a conditioned response to Ignorance, out of pleasure, pain or indifference (greed, ill-will or delusion).

Truth: Everything that appears, disappears.
Truth: Everything that arrises, falls.
Truth: Whatever is born, dies.
Truth: Pain, sorrow, grief, lamentation and despair is suffering.
Truth: Loving the unloved is suffering.
Truth: Loosing the loved is suffering.
Truth: Not getting what one wants is suffering.
Truth: There is no self in any of this, nor are any of these things contained in self, no is self contained in any of these.

Why are they truth, because they cannot be disputed otherwise. They are a constant truth that even after the disappearance of their meaning will always remain true at the appearance of their conditions.

Thoughts, ideas, views ... all a part of this whole mass of suffering. Identifying self in thoughts, ideas, views is a part of this whole mass of suffering.

How can you discover this truth on your own? By separating the idea, thought and view and examining it without identifying with it one comes to the conclusion that this is not me, this is not who I am, this is not my self.

Self is identified with the experiences and what motivates the idea of experience, the thought of experience, the view of experience ... pleasure, pain, and indifference (greed, ill-will, and delusion).

Self is identified with what is seen, what is heard, what is smelled, what is tasted, what is felt (tactilely), and what is thought.

I see, I hear, I smell, I taste, I feel, I think ... therefore I am ... bound to the idea of a truly existing self, bound to an identity ... whether this identity be darrellkitchen, xexon, or whomever uses a label to identify self in any of this ...

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One who speaks does not know, one who knows does not speak. -Lao Tzu

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Now you see, this is why holy books are the bloated works that they are.

"God" is simple.

But the mind just can't leave it alone. It has to examine all sides, although it is the one who creates the idea of sides to begin with. Then it has to write it down, as if doing so validates it.

Other minds, being of the same compulsion, do likewise. Religions and movements form when like minded individuals gather together to enforce these ideals among themselves.

While there is strength in numbers, there is often a lack of wisdom. Wisdom sees longterm whereas ideas are in the here and now. Whatever is fashionable.

Buddha, has moved on...

A true Buddha realizes that the mind is accessed through the heart first.

The heart loves to play. It does so because it can connect with everything around it.

The mind forms barriers which prevents this.



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Including the barrier of clinging to one's own views as a fire clings to its fuel. Clinging to ones own views is binding one to views of self.

This whole conversation was a point.

Not about God, not about religion, not about priests or monks, not about clinging or letting go, not about examining, creating ideas of sides, writing down or validating anything.

It's about making claims that you have attained to a state that you have not. I'm not a philosopher. That too, is a product of mind. I've distanced myself from it because I no longer am bound to the identity that came with it.

When in fact your defending your own views of a thing has only shown that you are bound to the identity that comes with it.

A true Buddha realizes that mind and heart are nothing but words used to identify self as belonging to these, being posessed of these, and being contained in these.

Even this dialogue.

The Buddha of this era himself has claimed that nothing changes more than or faster than the mind, and has given clear indication that mind and heart are the same.

If you were not your mind, a product of the mind, if mind was not chief in your actions (physical or speech) you would not be on HipForums in this thread making claims to distancing yourself from mind because you are no longer bound to the identity that comes with it.

The statement you made is a testament to this identity that you are so tightly bound to. The pseudonym Xexon is a testament to this identity that you are so tightly bound to.

Defending views, ideas and opinions is a tight bond to identity. Identifying ones SELF with their views, ideas and opinions. One who has moved beyond views, ideas and opinions has nothing to defend as views, ideas and opinions no longer apply, therefore there is nothing to discuss relating to these. Such a one would not have made claims to having moved beyond anything, distancing oneself from anything, claiming to no longer being bound to any identity of this or that as the very notion of identity itself would no longer apply. There would be nothing to claim distancing oneself from as the claim itself would indicate that there is something there to apply this thought to.

I've distanced Myself ... because I no longer am bound to the identity ...

Sure you are bound to your identity ... where there is no identity there is no self ... no I ... no Me ... no Myself.

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Humans really went down hill when they learned to write. I had much more fun with them when they couldn't.

The mind, is the only child in most people's lives.

It is their creation. Their progeny. Their identity, lived through an extension of themselves rather than directly. A product of social conditioning. It is fed and nurtured in the same way as a biological child.

Is seems forbidden to humans to address reality directly. The ego must act as ambassador to the outside world. It is from that point that I address you.

Not the totality of what I am, but it is the part that you can recognize.

I am, after all, you. Just in another form.

And that is consistant throughout time.

I identify with my form and yours as well. Realizing the common source of both.



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Ahhh ...

So you are a philosopher ...

Is truth a constant through time? Yes.

How? The conditions that give rise to truth, that give truth its appearance. When the condition no longer exists, the truth itself no longer exists ... it is no longer applicable to any conventional means for identifying it as a truth as the idea of identity itself will no longer apply. Ideas will no longer apply. Views will no longer apply. As long as the conditions exist for the appearance of Ideas and Views, the truth that appears as a result of these conditions will always be constant.

Games and wordplay are a result of the condition of identity, ideas, conceptions, views. Words (spoken or written) are a medium where one identifies with their position in reality, be it this particular realm or any realm between the one on the right or left, up or down, in or out ... Even the Bhrama realm(s). There is always a medium one uses to describe and identify with their descriptions of reality. And because of this condition of self, truth will always arise. You're wrong, I'm right ... conditions of clinging to self, craving self, identifying with self, clinging to existence, clinging to non-existence, views, ideas, opinions.

There is no common source. Source does not apply. Common does not apply. This is conventional thinking, using a conventional mind. "Source" and "common" are only descriptions of your position in this reality and therefore do not apply outside of conventional thinking. The truth is, we are bound by our craving to pleasure, pain and indifference. We are here as a result of this bond to craving pleasure, pain and indifference. We, you and I, are on this board because of this bond to craving pleasure, pain and indifference. If it were not so, neither you, nor I, would be here. We would not be sharing (and in some cases pushing) our descriptions of our particular perceptions of this particular reality in any conventional means. But because we are is a testament in itself that we are doing exactly that ... craving pleasure, pain and indifference ... craving self and identity with self ...

If you or I would BE a Buddha, we would not be on the internet, not be owning a computer, not making money, not owning anything but the cloth to cover the body, living out in the forest, in a thicket, under a tree, or in a cave ... but we're not, because here we are. You making claims to your liberation, me making claims to your not attain to such liberations.

Seems you have a point to prove, X, else you would just let this conversation go. Well, have the last word. Prove your point. Say what you have to say and be done with it.

The only looser is the one who thinks the other is a looser ...

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Somehow I find this statement puzzeling ...

If you are present in this realm of existence, on a computer, you must have hands. If you're not ape, orangutang, chimpanzee, or some other orboreal anthropoid outside of being human, than what are you? How are you able to enter this medium of communication?

What's particularly puzzeling is your claim to have had fun with humans before they learned to write. Is this delusoinal thinking?

Oh, wait ... you must be ... God?

How can that be? I don't believe such a being exists. Matter-of-fact, by my perception of things, I know such a being doesn't exist. So you're not God ... guess that makes you a delusional being ... as are all beings who are motivated by Greed, Ill-Will and Delusion. Me included. Only ... hmmm ... I ...

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can you explain this?

When I think about the idea of truth, I do not believe it is constant through time. I believe it to be generally as xexon explains it. Yet I feel there is one truth which is constant through time, love. There are many understandings of love. Others call it a common energy, a spiritual soup, whatever, to me it is love. Love is Truth is God is Energy and so on and so on.

So, I am interested in your view of the heart. You seem to generally ignore love and reference to the heart in all your posts, and then mention that they are the same. Can you tell me more about your view of the heart mind. I know we're getting off topic here, but I am interested to know?

 

It's the old foot in the door routine.

I poke my head in to take a look around, but it doesn't mean I stay. Once upon a time, I had no choice.

Now I do.




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Love is the ability to see yourself in other things.

The "heart" is what allows you to see this.



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Okay, this battle of the buddhas is a little crazy. who are any of us to judge whether anyone else has reached spiritual enlightenment and whether they did it the right way?

I agree with xexon that it is possible to reach that point, that we will call enlightenment, without giving up all belongings and sitting for days at a time. I believe one can attain enlightenment. In fact I think it is right there all the time in front of us, and we just have to become part of it.

 

So love is not a constant truth, in your opinion?

 

Love in the human context can never be true, because it is based on opinion. Opinion is the end product of reasoning, which is a weighing of evidence. Evindence gathered through limited sensors.

Humans THINK they love something. And are quite inclined to change their mind about it.

Divine love never waivers. It's no candle in the wind.

It dominates the day as the sun dominates the sky.



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What if you have experienced love unwavering? Even through, say, the end of a relationship. And not in a the "oh, i'm in love" kind of way, but in the fact that it is still there in a different form.

 

It will still be subject to the opinion of the moment.

Would that state of unwavering love change if you walked in on that person in bed with your best friend? It sometimes takes a severe test to measure the level of human love. Most of it will blow away without much resistance.

You can still love people you detest, but it will always be subject to that opinion you have about them. Here, the higher self must have voice.

Because its just too easy to hate.



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I have had that severe test of love, and discovered that in some situations love does rise above it all. It is love that is deeper than sex, or dating, or friendship even. Just love, a pure connection to another person. I have had many tests of my unwavering love, and I have tested others unwavering love for me. There are some loves that just do not waver. I am blessed to have several in my life.

 

Mind is chief. If one speaks with a corrupted mind, then suffering follows. If one acts with a corrupted mind, then suffering follows. If one speaks with a pure mind, then happiness follows. If one acts with a pure mind, then happiness follows. Before one speaks, the thought to speak must appear. Thought is an action of mind. Before one acts, the thought to act must appear. Thought is an action of mind.

In Pali, which is the language spoken by the Buddha in his time, the word Manas means both heart and mind, as mind in its role of will and intention.

We use words as a medium to describe our position in reality. Our position could be described as the function of the process of becoming, existing. Love is one of those words. It is a word used to describe the amount of craving we have for our feelings, the sensations produced by coming into contact with the object of this craving, beit forms with the eye, sounds with the ear, aromas with the nose, tastes with the tongue, tangibles with the body or thoughts with the mind. In the case of Love for something ... it is not the something (object) we have Love for, rather the amount of craving for feelings we experience when we see this object, when we hear this object, taste this object, smell this object, touch this object, and even think about this object ... event, person, place or thing being a function of object.

Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling, thinking are identified as self then it is self we have craving for. Seeing is a mental factor for the condition of eye contact with form. Hearing is a mental factor for ear contact with sounds. Smelling is a mental factor for nose contact with aromas. Tasting is a mental factor for tongue contact with flavors. Feeling (tactile) is a mental factor for body contact with tangibles. and Thought is a mental factor for mind contact with ideas and fabrications. One cannot relenquish craving for self while identifying with it.

What do I mean by ideas and fabrications? When the eye contacts forms, a sensation is produced equated to feeling. Feeling is classified through Perception. Perception creates ideas and the mind Fabricates ones view of reality. Ideas and Fabrications give rise to Consciousness, awareness.

Awareness as seeing, awareness as hearing, awareness as smelling, awareness as tasting, awareness as touching, awareness as thinking. Cognative events. Mind occurs in a continuous stream that consists of an unbroken succession of discrete cognitive events. These events are a complex unit comprising Consciousness itself, that is, the basic awareness of an object, and a group of mental factors (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling, and thinking) that have more specialized tasks in the act of cognition.

We use words to describe this entire process of awareness, this entire process of cognition, our perception of how reality appears to us. Love, Hate, pleasure, pain, Ignorance, indifference. Nothing more than a description of the feelings we have motivated by greed (pleasure), ill-will (pain) and delusion (indifference, ignorance).

Describing forms, the appearance of forms, the process of forms, the function of forms, and the passing away of forms. Describing forms relating to the seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling and thinking.

Describing our feelings, the appearance of feelings, the process of feelings, the function of feelings, the passing away of feelings. Describing our feelings for what we see, what we hear, what we taste, what we feel and what we think.

If we speak out of anger, anger is in the mind else it would not have been spoken. If it's in the mind to speak, then it is in the mind to act out bodily. If we speak out of compassion, compassion is in the mind, else it would not have been spoken. If it is in the mind to speak out of compassion, it is also in the mind to act-out bodily out of compassion.

Describing our perceptions, the appearance of perceptions, the process of perceptions, the function of perceptions, and the passing away of perceptions. Describing our perception of what we see, what we hear, what we smell, what we taste, what we feel and what we think.

Describing our ideas and fabrications, the appearance of ideas, the process of ideas, the function of ideas, and the passing away of ideas. Describing our ideas and fabrications for what we see, what we hear, what we smell, what we taste, what we feel and what we think.

And finally, describing consciousness itself. The appearance of consciousness, the process of consciousness, the function of consciousness, and the passing away of consciousness. Describing consciousness as awareness for what we see, what we hear, what we smell, what we taste, what we feel and what we think.

When we say, "I hate this ..." we are describing the amount of craving we have for ill-will toward whatever it is we see, or hear, or taste, or smell, or feel, or think, or any combination of these, or all of these. We are saying we are motivated by ill-will for forms, sounds, tastes, aromas, tangibles, or the thought associated with the object of ill-will.

Same for, "I love this ...", we are describing the amount of craving we have for pleasure (greed) toward whatever it is we see, or hear, or taste, or smell, or feel, or think, or any combination of these, or all of these. We are saying we are motivated by greed for forms, sounds, tastes, aromas, tangibles or thoughts associated with the object of greed.

"this" being the object of desire or repulsion.

"Mind occurs in a continuous stream that consists of an unbroken succession of discrete cognitive events. These events are a complex unit comprising Consciousness itself, that is, the basic awareness of an object, and a group of mental factors (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling, and thinking) that have more specialized tasks in the act of cognition."

Continuous stream of seeing, taking pleasure in what we see, disliking what we see, indifferent toward what we see; taking pleasure in what we hear, disliking what we hear, indifferent toward what we hear; taking pleasure in what we taste, smell, feel, think, dislike for what we think, indifferent toward what we think.

Continuously. Non-stop. Motivated by greed, ill-will and delusion.

As a consequence to this continuous stream of events, we have tendencies to label them and describe them using those labels ... Love is one of such labels.

The Love you are trying to describe ... it doesn't matter how one describes ... anything ... in the description, is a complex association to seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling and thinking ... the objects of cognitive awareness.

That is why I never use the word Love. Perhaps Loving-kindness; kindness one would have for or directed toward someone, or a group of someone's when one becomes aware of their own condition and can associate this same condition as occuring in others. Some would even equate this sort of kindness as Pity; sympathetic or kindly sorrow evoked by the suffering, distress, or misfortune of another, often leading one to give relief or aid or to show mercy.

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Feelings ...

Describing ones feelings ...

Long as we are identified by our feelings, there is no liberation attained by any. If we identify by our feelings, we also identify by our perceptions. We also identify by our ideas. We also identify by our awareness.

It's okay to think the way you do. No one is TELLING you you are wrong for doing so. Every action has a consequence. Action is mental, verbal and physical, and as a result has a specific consequence associated with mind, speach and bodily action. A cessation of action results in a cessation of feeling, a cessation of craving, a cessation of clinging, a cessation of becoming, a cessation of birth and a cessation of death, pain, sorrow, lamentation, grief and despair.

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I don't Love things (objects), I Love people. When I say "I love this ..."

I am describing the desire to have them know happiness. Which I try to apply to all humans, but there are some for whom I feel a personal responsibility to contribute to their happiness. In some situations this may mean letting them go, in some it may mean being close to them. You cannot tell me that is greed. It is the exact opposite of greed.

I disagree the love I am trying to describe averts all possible description in any aural language, which is why in human form it so often manifests as a physical attraction. The arts have spent centuries trying to capture it in any language. It is the opposite of greed. It is the love that makes my heart larger, my love fuller, my mind more open.

That is my experience of love. It is my one constant truth. It comes from within me and I come from it.

 

Again, feelings ...

You're just describing how you feel by reclassifying the label used to describe this feeling ... Love but not sex-love, or dating-love, or friendship-love ... it's all the same thing ... how it makes you feel ...

Nothing you can describe using conventional communication will ever describe non-conventional ideas or meanings. Ideas and meanings are conventional descriptions associated with perception related to what the mind fabricates when it experiences feelings, in the process of awareness.

You will love as a result of your feelings ... unwaveringly, unconditionally ... at least till you no longer take pleasure in those feelings, then it is no longer unwavering or unconditional ...

Whatever arises, falls. Whatever appears, disappears. Whatever is born, dies. Nothing -- NO THING -- in any conventional sense of the word, is permanent.

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