Is Snowden a national hero? Traitor? None of the above?

Well could have been inferred by their actions. The legal framework was there, and the NSA's was developing that technical capacity was known, and their have been many reports of telecoms providing access and microsoft providing backdoors, and what not.

But I don't think theres been a leaked powerpoint presentation saying "Yeah we're doing this" before the Snowden and Verizon leaks. And that published numbers to congress were a complete crock, IE: That one warrant covers all phone calls made to and from all Verizon business customers.

 

What the Russian govt are saying (and they have massive backing from the population) is that you shouldn't have certain groups promoting sexual stuff to kids.

Many homosexuals claim that their preferences are a result of abuse, of the media promoting it, or even thro dioxin poisoning. Also a result of networking in certain early careers esp entertainment. Russia is jsut acting on that.

The West had a basic rule that you don't try and sell sexual views/preferences to kids. You don't talk to kids about blowjobs. Therefore you shouldn't sell them ideas of men cutting their dicks off, wearing dresses, then standing on a parade float with a giant dildo singing "I'm coming out".

People aren't allowed to promote sado-masochism to kids, or dressing up as babies and all that shit. Likewise, its not appropriate to promote any other specific type of non-standard activity.

Russia has no problem with someone getting up to whatever in private. Just that kids cannot evaluate these matter, therefore they should not be exposed to them. I've noticed lesbians (other than the crewcut dungaree brigade) dont seem to be obsessed with selling their lifestyle to others. Unfortunately, some gay males seem to think it is their mission to convert everyone to homosexuality, gay adoption and all their "kinks" as they call it.

Infact, I don't even see why adults should be bombarded with this constant sales pitch in the mainstream. Ancient Greece had a massive amount of homosexuality, but it never considered promoting things such as "gay adoption" and stuff..

 

IamnotaMan

Are you serious? 'Many'? Do you mean men in Russia that are gay? I would imagine any that are saying such things have been made to feel ashamed of their sexuality. I hope you are just mentioning what you have read is occurring - and don't actually believe those things cause people to become gay.

I won't go on because I'll just go on a rant....and I don't want to derail the thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_28

 

Gorbachev and Yeltsin were the reformers. Putin has rolled back some of those reforms. Since this was long an atheist country, I would have expected you to be on the side of increasing religious freedom.

My understanding is that the beliefs and practices of the Eastern Orthodox Church (long dominant in Russia) are similar to those of mainstream Catholicism.

Can you name a single example of something Russia has done internationally in the past ten years for the stated purpose of helping others in need?

 

You can't love a country for it's country? Who cares what 'russia' has done internationally for helping others. That could easily be compensated by the bad. Yes, I can't help but think about your own country Not saying Russia has a more praise worthy attitude internationally than the USA. Although I do want to say that a country is not by definition it's government, just like it's international help or lack thereof does not have to say much about it's citizens or culture by definition. I love Russia too, but I do not like Putin or their government in general. I like the idea of communism and the idea behind an atheistic state but I don't like when that idea is forced on the people. etc. etc. So why dislike a whole country because of their leader, past or one certain policy? To me that seems a little shortsighted.

 

This is standard, accepted scientific beliefs. People's preferences are affected by their upbringing. eg 100s of yrs ago really fat women were considered "hot". Nowadays 6ft megaskinny ones are promoted.

The pre birth dioxin research can be found all over the Net. 2 members of Franky Goes to Hollywood wanted treatment for their homosexuality. Then one decides it actually made him a lot of money.

Likewise, abuse affecting people's preferences is standard psychologists views.

Does accepted scientific belief really shake your view of the World to the core?

 

Only 4/9 member liked this post.

Right now I'm just going to talk for the sake of talking and don't really believe the following.

I would like to point out that this is not as far fetched as it seems.

Having a security contractor have access to this information in freaking powerpoint format is a risk if he wasn't properly vetted.

The advantages of having this information available to the public would be known to psy ops. People, fearing always being watched would behave better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-censorship

So you bring in a young contractor with stated anarchistic tendencies and accidentally spill some documents across his desk or leave in a "secret folder" and you just see what happens.

Maybe he spills it to the media and everyone knows about the scope of the governments surveillance.

Again, that's just a thought experiment.

 

No Gorbachev betrayed his country with stupidity and masonic arsekissing.
Yeltsin was a drunken idiot who took America's advice to let Russia become run by robber barons, and harrassed by terrorists like Chechenyans and Neo-Cons.

Putin had the balls to stand up to America and other thieves. He's highly popular, certainly in comparison to those 2 monkeys u like. The 2 monkeys who kissed America's arse.

The USSR was never an athiest state. It was a secular one. Like most places largely are. Yet another lie from Uncle Sam.

Russia has done much in international aid, identifying injustices, and most of all protecting nations from American invasion and exploitation.

What has America offered? Genocide, invasion, state terrorism, state kidnappings of foreign nationals, financial collapse and fraud, torture camps, GM poison and much more..

Now who was it you said was in need of reform?

 

I really don't get your point.
I can't even name a single example of something that USA has done in the past ten years to help people internationally, except bringing freedom and democracy to several countries :-D

Russia is an Orthodox country. And yes, the Orthodox Church there shares some of the beliefs and especially moral values with the Catholic Church.
It was a communist country, so what? Should I dislike Germany because of Hitler and Nazis, or Turkey because of the atrocities during the Ottoman Empire?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5Rrdvah9EA"]Morgan Freeman destroys PRISM - YouTube

 

IamnotaMan

I don't think sexual orientation is the same as what is generally accepted to be aesthetically pleasing to an artist/the media.

I've never met or heard of any man or woman that has decided to turn gay because of what they see on TV etc.
'Hey, I've seen lots of gay people on TV - lets see what that's like' - no, I don't think it works like that.

I do think it is more likely that a more tolerant/open/liberal society helps people not hide themselves in the proverbial closet.
Given it was a criminal offence not that long ago, and the fact a lesbian kiss was headline news only a couple of decades ago - it isn't surprising that gay people didn't feel confident 'coming out'.
It's still taboo in many circles (sport etc).
The 'media' doesn't promote homosexuality - most of it tolerates it, part of it doesn't make it an issue - which it really shouldn't be.

You said earlier:

If suggesting there isn't anything wrong with a gay couple adopting, or that there isn't anything wrong with a gay couple kissing in the street is 'promotion' - I've read the wrong dictionary, obviously.

I'm quite sure the National Curriculum seeks to 'promote' the fact there isn't anything wrong with homosexuality, and discuss 'gay relationships' just the same way they do heterosexual relationships.


PSHE:
‘As pupils explore similarities and differences between people and discuss social and moral dilemmas, they learn to deal with challenges and accommodate diversity in all its forms.’
'The one thing you don’t want to do is reinforce prejudices, make
bullies feel they are somehow justified or create an atmosphere where undercover gay and lesbian pupils have to listen to even more homophobic abuse, this time seemingly sanctioned by the school.'

Maybe Russia will get to where we are someday, but I don't hold my breath.

 

ok dont know why this is all of the sudden being about gay rights lol, welcome to hipforums guyz

but personally i think bradly manning was a traitor. some of the things he leaked were heroic, while he also put us all at risk w/ a lot of the things he leaked.

 

We already had this discussion, about Italy.

This thread is about a political situation, not the history or culture or natural beauty of any country. I'm only talking about Russia because they are now deeply involved in the Snowden situation.

Like I said before, I think he made a mistake by going there.

 

he's on his way to equador right now though.

 

I thought that discussion was about something else, just like this thread was about something else but ok.

 

Your horse must be tired of dragging you after all these years asmodean,
do you ever give him/her water? LOL


Once snowden gives an interview like Assange from within an Embassy
we'll have a clearer picture, although we all knew this was going on, now it's a proven FACT.

 

As I recall, we more or less agreed that the rich culture and history of Italy has to be viewed separately from the reputation of its political and legal systems. That was an Amanda Knox thread.

For the same reasons, I see no problem with someone loving Tchaikovsky and Chekhov while considering the Putin government to be a piece of shit.

For a while, Snowden appeared to have the moral high ground, at least to some extent, but I see that perception rapidly going downhill as he gets more deeply involved with foreign governments. At this point, China and Russia surely have duplicate copies of whatever data he was carrying with him, and he put himself into situations where that was a likely outcome. He just didn't have a smart plan.

 

you want to jump on gay russians? :biker: