Is Parent-Child Spanking Ever Ok?

Discussion in 'Parenting' started by Nerdanderthal, May 14, 2015.

  1. Nerdanderthal

    Nerdanderthal Members

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    There's a fair amount of data out there that leads to the conclusion it's the opposite of productive. Have any of you researched the topic? If you're informed what are your thoughts on it?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONNRfflggBg
     
  2. Pieceofmyheart

    Pieceofmyheart Grumpy old bitch HipForums Supporter

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    Well if you ask a bunch of us old timers....I got spanked a few times, my sisters did also and we are fine. I also have swatted my kids behinds before and they seem fine also.
     
  3. AceK

    AceK Scientia Potentia Est

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    most of what ive read about psychology seems to suggest that harsh criticism and punishment are not very effective, and unlikely to produce the desired behavior. I've been reading Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends & Influence People", it seems that constructive criticism and the reward of good behavior is far more effective at producing positive changes in people.
     
  4. Nerdanderthal

    Nerdanderthal Members

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    Let us put on our critical thinking hats though. Let us not rely on anecdotal evidence, an extremely limited number of personal experience examples. Let us not decide that because some people survive physical abuse in a relatively functional state, physical abuse is ok. Spanking will not necessarily produce a felon, but essentially all felons were spanked.

    Spanking is an argument from tradition. Tradition is a mild form of dogma, and we should always put dogma through the crucible of logical analysis. Don't let feelings of guilt or shame prevent you from objective examination. Try to remove cognitive bias wherever possible.
     
  5. Nerdanderthal

    Nerdanderthal Members

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    Seems so, more carrot, less stick. When it comes to inflicting physical suffering on another human being, no stick. That rule really should apply to all sentient beings.
     
  6. NoxiousGas

    NoxiousGas Old Fart

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    nerd obviously has no children

    It depends on what behavior you are trying to correct/admonish AND the age/cognitive development of the child.

    Even animals use some form of corporal punishment whenever rearing their young.
    Cats will hold a kitten down by the neck, dogs will nip or hold the muzzle of a puppy, etc.,etc.

    for small children, 2 years and younger, a swat on the butt is invariably more effective than a time out or "talking about it".
    at that age and development they are not going to comprehend that the stove is hot, but a swat on the butt or hand will convey the message very succinctly.

    as the child grows and their sense of self identity arises around two years of age, then corporal punishment becomes counterproductive. the reason being is that the child is now developing the concept of "I" and can reflect on differences between themselves and others and could begin to view corporal punishment as "unfair" or targeted towards them. They can also now reflect back on their past behavior and relate it to their current punishment, so time-outs and restrictions begin to be effective.
    With this sense of self also comes the ability to begin to reason and project more fully into the future. That is when time-outs and talking can be productive means of discipline.

    So there is no hard and fast rule or whatever concerning it, you just need to be aware of the child's cognitive development as to whether or not corporal punishment is effective or counter-productive.


    My experience?
    many child psych courses (LOL)
    been caring for kids since I was a teen
    raised/raising 6 kids
    our business deals directly with kids ages 4-12
     
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  7. Karen_J

    Karen_J Visitor

    It's a primitive punishment for primitive minds. It's impossible to reason with a two year old. They don't understand "time out". You can't take away privileges because they don't have any yet. They don't have their own money. They don't have personal freedoms to be taken away. In training them not to do things to hurt themselves, your options at early ages are extremely limited. For punishment to work, the child has to fully comprehend it. At the lowest, earliest stages of mental functioning, physical discomfort is about all they care about avoiding.

    In observing many of the other higher mammals in the animal kingdom, you will see quite a few examples of mothers making use of limited physical punishment, almost always to prevent greater harm. One clear example is bear cubs. They like to play rough with each other. Mama bear will allow this up to a point, but when one of them starts using teeth and claws, she knows somebody is about to get hurt. Instinctively, she knows just exactly how hard to hit the offender to let him know without injuring him that his behavior is not going to be tolerated. It works.
     
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  8. NoxiousGas

    NoxiousGas Old Fart

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    you ever notice how often we are on the same page? :)

    great minds think alike.
     
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  9. Nerdanderthal

    Nerdanderthal Members

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    Fair enough when dealing with children young enough to have absolutely no reasoning capacity. I've heard of parents flicking kids hands when they try to play with outlets and asking "oh no did it bite you!? I guess you better not play with it"

    That's more understandable to me than using it on an 8 year old. At what age should it be considered completely inappropriate? It seems to me if a parent allows his or herself to resort to corporeal punishment, they will fail to see more creative ways to go about teaching. It's the easy way out to use physical dominance, to assert that might equals right. To what extent can a parent objectively monitor themself and their cognitive biases? Are they having a really bad day? Will that make it more likely to hit the kid? Undoubtedly with so many parents, yes that will play a huge factor.

    Some parents do what they can to NOT play the authoritarian role. They treat the interactions with elements of negotiation and compromise. That is what your adult relationships will entail anyhow, why not engrain that mindset as early on as possible.
     
  10. drumminmama

    drumminmama Super Moderator Lifetime Supporter

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    I struck Spawn twice.
    Both times I was motivated by fear.
    Once at about 19 months, for bolting into a street, and once at 19 years for mouthing off.

    I modified behaviour in other ways.

    Now, I came to parenting with the intuitive sense that I did not want to use violence.
    Once it was clear Spawn was going to outgrow me (noted by my family at about a year of age) I started joking that hitting the kid only said bigger people can hit smaller people, and I was eventually be smaller people.
    This joke had a kernel of truth. Kiddo was taller than I by age 13.

    Now, grabbing and restraining, and in the diaper years, a very loud thwap on the diaper cover worked splendidly. I could thump across at an angle and make a noise that startled me! With cloth diapers, not much sensation traveled through. Since kiddo froze, but never reacted like she felt anything, I'm certain no pain was involved.

    We had a family saying that meant "stop that speech or behaviour right now/ that's inappropriate."
    Lick soap.
    If one has children about, soap that looks like Popsicles is cute, but likely getting licked in curiosity.
    It happened in my house.
    So, for years, "lick soap" was a threat with little teeth to it.
    Eventually, kiddo used it on the adults.
    We rolled with it, and it's still used in phone conversations today.
    Kiddo is 23. I'm advisory board member number one, now.

    ETA
    That strike at 19 years? She caught my hand, placed her hand on my forehead and stepped back. Just as my older brother did with me.
    I flailed into space.
     
  11. NoxiousGas

    NoxiousGas Old Fart

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    plain and simple, it doesn't work

    the concept of treating your kids as equals, "talking" every thing out, and all that jazz foisted on the world by Dr. Spock doesn't work and is quit frankly one of the reasons for the last couple of decades kids have gotten to be so disrespectful towards everything.

    Children NEED and WANT an authority figure in their lives.
    without an authority figure setting boundaries and consequences you end up with an adult that lacks self confidence and self esteem, or conversely has a self -image that is out of whack and they think they are "above" others.
    That is demonstrated all the time. you essentially end up with almost the same mentality in kids from an overly permissive household as those from a "dysfunctional" household with little or no parental control.

    it is the lack of firm boundaries, controls and consequences in early development that leads to the obstinate 8 year old that you just wanna beat to a pulp.
     
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  12. Pieceofmyheart

    Pieceofmyheart Grumpy old bitch HipForums Supporter

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    Once a child can "reason" then spanking is generally ineffective and not necessary.

    But...with all the new age parenting supposedly being so great, why are so many of today's young so inconsiderate, rude and self absorbed? Being a teacher these days deserves combat pay.

    NoxiousGas posted the same time I did, and I agree with you. Children need boundaries and yes, authoritarian figures and rules. Children are not "equals" to their parents, and treating them as such is a disservice to all humanity that will have to deal with your self entitled offspring.
     
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  13. Karen_J

    Karen_J Visitor

    Yeah, it's been a long time since we had a big disagreement.

    I'm sure it's tempting to be lazy in finding appropriate punishments, or to grab onto an excuse to take out frustrations violently. Parenting is a hard job, and some people suck at it. Corporal punishment should be phased out as early as other effective punishments can be found. I think it has to track language skills.

    Mama bears are lucky. They're guided by natural animal instincts that we don't have. They don't have to reason everything out. They just know. But it really is fascinating to watch them. Without much of an effort, with one incredibly powerful front paw, she can send one of the little ones sailing through the air! The first time I saw that, I thought something terrible had happened. Then the cub shook the dust off his fur, looked around, and went somewhere to sulk for a few minutes. In no time, he was back playing with his brother, nicer this time. Claws retracted. Then I realized that baby bears are so tough that anything less might not have gotten his attention. A small human who took a blow like that would have been on the way to an intensive care unit.
     
  14. Nerdanderthal

    Nerdanderthal Members

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    Most parents still hit their kids....

    EVERYTHING is a cost benefit analysis. Teach your kids to reason effectively and to weigh the pros and cons of behavior.

    Would you guys give me any examples where reasoning failed? Where does the need to drop rule hammers arise? I admit I am not terribly experienced with kids and I want to hear what the difficult situations are like. From the age of 5 onward, where is it necessary to use "because I said so"?
     
  15. Nerdanderthal

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    I think that need and want for an authority figure is similar to our religious impulses. Some people much more than others want a father figure in the sky, laying down the law.

    What does an obstinate 8 year old look like? Why would that enrage you? Is challenging authority a bad thing?

    I think "respect your elders" is a tenet that is widely subscribed to. It is an argument from tradition of course, I'd be interested to hear anyone's logic behind it.
     
  16. NoxiousGas

    NoxiousGas Old Fart

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    I got a good one about cats.
    A few years ago this cat we had had a litter of 5 kittens. We kept them in a little kiddie wading pool in the front room so the kids could see & play with them, but they were "safe" in their own space.
    One afternoon the wife and I are sitting there while the kittens played and momma cat watched over it all. There was small litter box/tray in there for them to use.
    One kitten stopped playing and squatted and took a pee and then went back to playing.
    What happened next was absolutely astonishing.
    Momma cat grabbed the kitten by the neck, took it to the litter box, then made this weird growling type of sound and all the kittens came running over and sat down fixated on momma. She then went into a "bitch session" making all kinds of odd sounds. When she finished every kitten jumped into the litter box, started scratching around and trying to do their business.
    from that day on there were no more "accidents" from those kittens.

    the wife and I were both like :yikes:
     
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  17. Pieceofmyheart

    Pieceofmyheart Grumpy old bitch HipForums Supporter

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    Obviously you have no kids and aren't around them much if you haven't experienced an obstinate child. It's impossible to describe, and the feelings you have when you the parent of one, kinda like "you had to be there"

    Challenging authority can be a bad thing...or good thing...that totally depends on the situation.

    Respect your elders should be respect others actually. My logic would be this, if there are unruly, disrespectful kids in a classroom, it takes away from the others getting an education. It can make medical/dental appointments hell on everyone, it can make outings in public horrendous.
     
  18. Pieceofmyheart

    Pieceofmyheart Grumpy old bitch HipForums Supporter

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    I doubt that most parents hit their kids.

    I'm sorry...but that is funny..."teach your kids to reason...pros and cons, etc". You are rationalizing like an adult...kids do not think like adults. You'd have to try and think like a kid. Ever try nailing jello to a tree? Like reasoning with a child that clearly does not want to be reasoned with!

    Reasoning fails when a kid is overtired, hungry, stressed, angry, doesn't want to do something...the list can go on and on.

    In a perfect world.....LOL!
     
  19. Nerdanderthal

    Nerdanderthal Members

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    That's awesome. Indeed animals are fascinating. Dogs respond incredibly well to verbal cues while cats might need a physical nudge to get messages sent by humans.

    Give me some people examples though, tell me about problems from kids 5+
     
  20. Pieceofmyheart

    Pieceofmyheart Grumpy old bitch HipForums Supporter

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    At 5, that is too old to spank. But also could be too young and spoiled to reason with if the parents never set proper boundaries.

    1. Running around a restaurant and throwing food.

    2. Refusing to have medical/dental check up.

    3. Throwing a temper tantrum for not getting something they want in a store.

    4. Refusing to go to school.

    5. Being rude to teachers.

    There are 5 examples right there....what would a parent do in these situations...reason with them? yeah....right.
     

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