Is Nationalism A Good Thing?

In another thread someone commented that Nationalism is awful.
This got me thinking about this issue to the extent I thought I would start a thread on this subject.
For me I believe strongly that Nationalism really is a good thing, and residing in the UK I must say that I am proud to be British, and standing up for British values is very important to me.

I admit that the below letter was nicked from elsewhere, but basically says what I would like to say but this person says it better than I could.
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Nationalism creates belonging and balance.

First of all, Nationalism brings people together through common goals or ideas.
This is especially important in countries like the United States, where citizens are from all over the globe and often share little in common.
With no commonalities, It is a beautiful thing for those to come together and cheer on their country, and the ideas it holds dear.
Second, Nationalism is the best balance of government in the world.
It is practically in the middle between anarchy, In which clans or families are independent and constantly at war with each other, and a central global government which would not be desirable.
Nationalism provides that balance so that individual nations can seek what is best for their people and hold up the ideas that are dear to them.
Yes Nationalism can be perversed into being a hatred of other countries, but that is not a realistic interpretation of it.
It is a love of your country and it’s people, which doesn’t have to be at the expense of other countries.

Perhaps listen to this great song as well?



Merle Haggard - The Fighting Side of Me Lyrics

I hear people talkin' bad
About the way we have to live here in this country
Harpin' on the wars we fight
An' gripin' 'bout the way things oughta be

An' I don't mind 'em switchin' sides
An' standin' up for things they believe in
When they're runnin' down my country, man
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me
Runnin' down the way of life
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep

If you don't love it, leave it
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'
You're runnin' down my country, man
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

I read about some squirrelly guy
Who claims, he just don't believe in fightin'
An' I wonder just how long
The rest of us can count on bein' free

They love our milk an' honey
But they preach about some other way of livin'
When they're runnin' down my country, hoss
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me
Runnin' down the way of life
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep

If you don't love it, leave it
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'
But you're runnin' down my country, man
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me
Runnin' down the way of life
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep

Yeah if you don't love it, leave it
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'
And you're runnin' down my country, man
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

 

Nationalism makes people stupid. They're no longer capable of discerning when their country is in the wrong. They believe their nation can do no wrong.

"Love it or leave it" is fascism. If you don't agree with your country, you try to change it. You don't flee or just join in the praises. I could give two shits if I'm on "the fightin' side of you." If you want to fight, we'll fight. That's entirely up to you, and don't overestimate the power your powerful country gives you. Might does not make right.

 

Forty years of extensive studies concluded the republican party organizes like a flock of chickens. Nationalism has no real meaning to chickenshit republicans, who espouse Libertarian values and insist the corporations and governments they call evil lie to them for their own protection. Its hard to say you have pride in your evil corporations and government that you beg to lie to you for your own protection. You can try, but only crocodiles and politicians will believe a fucking word you say.

 

Yes I think so. I think if nationalism was to be stopped then you have to start merging countries together to take away any form on national pride and Honor. Nationalism doesn't have to be racial either, it annoys me that racism has to always coincide with nationalism. I don't see anything wrong with puting your country first and it's people as an entirety before trying to sort out other nations affairs and problems.

I also see zero problems with being proud of who you and where you come from and wanting where you come from to be beneficial for its own people. Don't matter what race or culture you are, if you've got a national citizenship then that's your country too and that's something to reflect on and look up to.

Honor and loyalty to your land.

 

So there are Billions of stupid people about then neon?

The Fighting Side Of Me is just a song and best not taken literally.
I am certainly not looking at the song and thinking fisticuffs!
But fighting for ones country is a good thing.
And as the song says:

If you don't love it leave it.

I believe in that!
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Like "Okie from Muskogee," "The Fightin' Side of Me" catered to the conservative working-man's values and politics; Bill Janovitz of Allmusic called the song "patriotic (if not outrightly jingoistic)."[1]

Here, the singer fills the role of a man frustrated with people deriding the country, particularly those who are "harpin' on the wars we fight" and "runnin' down my countrymen," a reference to the then-ongoing Vietnam War.[2]
People who do this, claims the singer, are "walkin' on the fightin' side of me" and warns them that "if you don't love it, leave it."

 

well yeah, that's the case regardless of the thread subject.

 

Well said Irminsul.
It is now 12.30AM here in the UK and after reading your post I can go to bed happy!

 

Eh. I know I won't get too much support, but I don't really care either anymore. I'm happy to produce my own opinions and stand up for them though.

 

I believe in nations, don't get me wrong. I think they're a good thing and am anti-globalist. But you can certainly love your nation without being a nationalist.

Merle's song just goes to show what nationalism does to people. "Them's fighting words." No, they're really not. There's no such thing as fighting words. You're just using popular ideals to try and excuse your own propensity for violence. Which is typical of nationalistic countries, i.e. Nazi Germany and fascist Italy. And 21st Century America in many regards.

And, as a matter of fact, I really don't like a lot of what the United States represents. But I'm also aware that the people who struggled to keep us free weren't doing so just for the people who listen to country music and fly American flags. All kinds of different people have fought and died for this country. Some of them were even hippies. Yes, I love America, but I'm not pro-everything America says and does.

I also just think nationalism cheapens culture. You know when someone tells you they love you twenty times in a row? After a while you begin to ask who they're trying to convince. I can love the country just as much, if not more, than the rest of you without being showy about it. Sometimes the most deeply felt emotions are held by the quietest, most unassuming people. I don't want to hear about how much you love America. I don't need to hear it. I just want to travel through the countryside and watch the sun set. I don't need to be bombarded by people who feel they need to prove their love somehow.

But overall, yeah...in practice, functionally...nationalism just excuses your country to commit awful deeds. It'd be nice if it were just being humbly appreciative of one's country, but that's not what it is.

 

Yeah see, I don't see nationalism as a justification for your country to do something awful. I don't understand why that comes up in conversation it seems so made up to me.

Like someone is nationalistic. They buy flags and they stand for anthems, they look after their country, it's people and enjoy supporting their nation in the world cup.

How is that awful and racist? I think sometimes people have this pre determined attitude or mindset and it notoriously involves everybody as a whole, where it's easy to see from people like me even, that that particular pre mediated thought pattern is not only incorrect, but just way off what you're judging people to believe. Etc.

 

Remember The Maine.

Neon's right. It's usually nonsense used by aristocrats to shallow up support domestically so they can get away with robbing the people blind or declaring war on someone people would otherwise have no problem with.

 

It depends to what degree of nationalism we're looking at. Zero nationalism is a bad thing, but so is too much nationalism.
Jingoism is the worst form of nationalism, as it is the belief that one's country can do no wrong.

 

There are different levels of nationalism. Smaller countries struggling to break free of larger countries, like old Soviet satellite countries for example, have every right to fight for their own self determination and sovereignty..which is by definition what nationalism is.
Nationalism can take a very ugly turn in more powerful nations. Like the US after 9/11, where citizens were all pumped up and draped with flags and the government manipulated their blind patriotism in order to drum up support for a war that destabilized another region of the world and advanced the interests of the elite in the US. That sort of nationalism can be quite dangerous.

And speaking of blind patriotism..flag waving, anthem singing, etc..I can't really stand any of that, they're just empty gestures. If you're a patriot then do something to better your country, don't just wave a flag then pat yourself on the back for being a true patriot. It doesn't work like that.

 

Who's to say the people waving flags don't do anything more? See that's the pre mediated thought conception I speak of. Maybe they run one of the best local business around, supply the economy with good products made true in the USA. They wave a flag and stand for the anthem and all a sudden they're deemed to be something else over nothing more than perception.

Ehhh.. Not my style. Peoples stories read far deeper than the outside appearance. I'm happy to conceit to that.

If I'm awful and an evil person for being somewhat nationalistic? Being proud of who we are and our land then meh, guess I'm evil and awful then. I'll happily take that right on the chin.

 

Archeologists argue that the measure of a civilization is the way they bury their dead, while I would argue their own children are their own judges, and ones that can never be avoided. The most nationalistic countries in the world, tend to be the most totalitarian and abusive, often having social problems, while those countries that provide an extensive safety net tend to have more people who simply trust their own government and even volunteer more often to support their country. Nationalism is no substitute for paying it forward.

 

The label "nationalism" is so easy to abuse by the ignorant. When I vote I vote for what I think America needs, not what I want. Hell, no one can give me what I want anyhow....
But there are these radical groups that start labeling themselves something like "white nationalist" or "black nationalist", and they push their sick idea of what is good for their country is also good for their race, when in reality that does not happen. A country is not better off because of race superiority. Now on the other hand, I'm sure many countries would be far better off if the "racial supremacists" would kindly kill each other off so the rest of us can live in peace....

 

If they're doing more then good on them, i never said that it automatically means they aren't doing anything else.

But their flag waving is still an empty gesture

And I'm around this certain type of "patriot" enough to be able to form a perfectly valid opinion, i've been told to leave the country enough times by people like this for simply having a different point of view lol, I can have an opinion about them just as much as they can have an opinion about me.
it has nothing to do with you so I'm not sure why you're doing this "I guess I'm evil" thing

 

If I were surrounded by foreigners criticizing America, I suppose then I'd say I was proud to be an American. I'm not ashamed of who I am, and I appreciate how this country has allowed me to develop as a human being (somewhat.) I mean, there's a lot of hypocrisy and shallowness, and it could be better. They call it the land of opportunity, but your opportunities still very much do depend upon what social class you're born into. There are exceptions, of course, but if you're not an exceptional person and you're born into the lower class, you're never going to be on easy street. Unlike unexceptional people born into upper classes.

But I don't really see the point in being nationalistic when I'm surrounded by other Americans. The whole point would seem to be to call into question the patriotism of other Americans, which in my mind is a very unpatriotic thing to do. That's why I can't stand all of this "Love it or leave it" crap. You're just dividing the country, which is the opposite of your proclaimed nationalistic intentions. I've never run into any patriotic people who were dressed in red, white, and blue head to toe and just had nothing negative to say about America or any of its citizens. Someone who really just LOVED EVERYTHING about this country.

I can only assume that it's cowardice. You're a coward so you hide behind a flag and try to pigeonhole someone else, to direct the attention away from the real problem, which is that you are a coward. My dad was a Vietnam vet, and I've known others, and they didn't drape themselves in the flag. I haven't known any veteran that was a stereotypical American patriot, in fact. They are more subdued than that. While the stereotypical patriots all seem to be in the National Guard, or "weekend warriors" as my dad called them.

Not calling you a coward, Irmyminsul. But Germanic history is a lot older and more nuanced than American history as well.