Is it time to talk about guns?

MeAgain · Jun 15, 2022

~Zen~ said: ↑

My thinking is that folks like mcme are going to have to get over it and accept the fact that their precious 2nd amendment is outdated, needs change and federal laws are necessary to stem the tide of murders in the US by guns.

There is a thing called a democracy where the will of the people overrule the minority. And then we all have to obey that law regardless. It is how our society works.

And don't gaslight me with talk of this is a republic.

Or change the subject.

You may have to accept the change, as the people seem overwhelmingly in favor of it.
Click to expand...

After debating this subject ad nauseam with various people in this thread. I have come to a conclusion that the views that differ with mine don't upset me as much as the logic and thinking process behind those views. We must remember that those same thinking processes are brought to bear on other subjects besides firearms and are used to decide other important issues

For example:
The belief that the Constitution is inviolate, and by that I mean the belief that it can't or shouldn't ever be changed.
This appears in this thread as the notion that the 2nd Amendment is dogma. It can't be changed.
Of course this is ridiculous as it, itself, is an amendment or change to the original Constitution.
Some people think the constitution is like the Bible.
You can point out numerous examples of changes made to the Constitution and even describe the mechanism written into the Constitution that allows changes.

But if you suggest changing the 2nd you are immediately labeled anti American.
According to this belief we would still live in a country where only white land owners could vote, slave ownership would be normal, and woman would have no rights.

The belief that the Constitution is not open to interpretation, at least any interpretation that doesn't agree with their interpretation.
There seems to be little understanding that we have an entire branch of the government set up for just this purpose. It's called the Supreme Court.
Additionally many fail to realize that the court is made up of individuals who hold their own views on various subjects and that those views can influence their decisions.
Further they don't understand that the role of the Supreme Court is to arbitrate when differences in interpretation of the Constitution occur. They have done that many times in the past and continue to do this to this day.

But if you point out to them that the original interpretation of the 2nd was that right to bear arms hinged on well ordered militias and was only reinterpreted in 2008 to mean the right of all citizens to bear arms in a future militia, they go quiet and ignore that decision completely.

They think the Constitution can only be interpreted the way they want it to be interpreted.
Again it is inviolate.

The complete failure to recognize contradictions.
A perfect example is the statement that assault weapons are no more dangerous than any other weapon, knife, scalpel, automobile, BB gun, shotgun, single shot .22 pistol, et. al.
Yet when you then suggest we get rid of assault weapons as any other thing such as a knife is just as dangerous and would therefore serve the same purpose and work just as well, they get very defensive and clutch those assault weapons ever tighter.

Projecting this onto other subjects we can see they have no understanding of what a contradiction is and therefore are greatly hampered when trying to understand various implications of other subjects.

The lack of understanding of magnitude, in the sense of greater and lesser ranking of variables.
This relates to the above failure to recognize contradictions in that many can't understand that the ability to accomplish an act with an object (A) that allows greater speed, damage, and accuracy than another object (B) is not the same object. A is different than B.
And more importantly object A operates on an order of magnitude above object B.

One bee in your bonnet is quite different than 100 bees in your bonnet.

The reliance on force and violence to solve all problems.
The only good way to stop a bad man with a gun is a good man with a gun.
Before even considering the fact that we have to assume bad men always have a gun, will always have a gun. and can never be prevented from having a gun; we are then led to believe that an act of violence must always be countered by another act of violence.
We aren't allowed to image any other means to counter violence. Shoot first ask questions later.

If a child hits another child with a stick, hit that child with a stick.

(I may add some more later...)

Toecutter · Jun 15, 2022

@MeAgain
Can you tell me the difference in these two rifles?

I’ll give you the short version, they both shoot the same caliber have the same magazine capacity and are semiautomatic,

One is considered a rifle, the other a evil killing machine
All because it looks scary to some…

Toecutter · Jun 15, 2022

MeAgain said: ↑

After debating this subject ad nauseam with various people in this thread. I have come to a conclusion that the views that differ with mine don't upset me as much as the logic and thinking process behind those views. We must remember that those same thinking processes are brought to bear on other subjects besides firearms and are used to decide other important issues

For example:
The belief that the Constitution is inviolate, and by that I mean the belief that it can't or shouldn't ever be changed.
This appears in this thread as the notion that the 2nd Amendment is dogma. It can't be changed.
Of course this is ridiculous as it, itself, is an amendment or change to the original Constitution.
Some people think the constitution is like the Bible.
You can point out numerous examples of changes made to the Constitution and even describe the mechanism written into the Constitution that allows changes.

But if you suggest changing the 2nd you are immediately labeled anti American.
According to this belief we would still live in a country where only white land owners could vote, slave ownership would be normal, and woman would have no rights.

The belief that the Constitution is not open to interpretation, at least any interpretation that doesn't agree with their interpretation.
There seems to be little understanding that we have an entire branch of the government set up for just this purpose. It's called the Supreme Court.
Additionally many fail to realize that the court is made up of individuals who hold their own views on various subjects and that those views can influence their decisions.
Further they don't understand that the role of the Supreme Court is to arbitrate when differences in interpretation of the Constitution occur. They have done that many times in the past and continue to do this to this day.

But if you point out to them that the original interpretation of the 2nd was that right to bear arms hinged on well ordered militias and was only reinterpreted in 2008 to mean the right of all citizens to bear arms in a future militia, they go quiet and ignore that decision completely.

They think the Constitution can only be interpreted the way they want it to be interpreted.
Again it is inviolate.

The complete failure to recognize contradictions.
A perfect example is the statement that assault weapons are no more dangerous than any other weapon, knife, scalpel, automobile, BB gun, shotgun, single shot .22 pistol, et. al.
Yet when you then suggest we get rid of assault weapons as any other thing such as a knife is just as dangerous and would therefore serve the same purpose and work just as well, they get very defensive and clutch those assault weapons ever tighter.

Projecting this onto other subjects we can see they have no understanding of what a contradiction is and therefore are greatly hampered when trying to understand various implications of other subjects.

The lack of understanding of magnitude, in the sense of greater and lesser ranking of variables.
This relates to the above failure to recognize contradictions in that many can't understand that the ability to accomplish an act with an object (A) that allows greater speed, damage, and accuracy than another object (B) is not the same object. A is different than B.
And more importantly object A operates on an order of magnitude above object B.

One bee in your bonnet is quite different than 100 bees in your bonnet.

The reliance on force and violence to solve all problems.
The only good way to stop a bad man with a gun is a good man with a gun.
Before even considering the fact that we have to assume bad men always have a gun, will always have a gun. and can never be prevented from having a gun; we are then led to believe that an act of violence must always be countered by another act of violence.
We aren't allowed to image any other means to counter violence. Shoot first ask questions later.

If a child hits another child with a stick, hit that child with a stick.

(I may add some more later...)
Click to expand...

Anyone that doesn’t agree with what you believe in is wrong in your eyes ?

Tyrsonswood · Jun 15, 2022

Toecutter said: ↑

All because it looks scary to some…
Click to expand...

Actually, No.

It's because that particular "modified rifle" is the one currently being used in mass shootings. I don't give a fuck what it "looks like".

mcme · Jun 15, 2022

MeAgain said: ↑

After debating this subject ad nauseam with various people in this thread. I have come to a conclusion that the views that differ with mine don't upset me as much as the logic and thinking process behind those views. We must remember that those same thinking processes are brought to bear on other subjects besides firearms and are used to decide other important issues

For example:
The belief that the Constitution is inviolate, and by that I mean the belief that it can't or shouldn't ever be changed.
This appears in this thread as the notion that the 2nd Amendment is dogma. It can't be changed.
Of course this is ridiculous as it, itself, is an amendment or change to the original Constitution.
Some people think the constitution is like the Bible.
You can point out numerous examples of changes made to the Constitution and even describe the mechanism written into the Constitution that allows changes.

But if you suggest changing the 2nd you are immediately labeled anti American.
According to this belief we would still live in a country where only white land owners could vote, slave ownership would be normal, and woman would have no rights.

The belief that the Constitution is not open to interpretation, at least any interpretation that doesn't agree with their interpretation.
There seems to be little understanding that we have an entire branch of the government set up for just this purpose. It's called the Supreme Court.
Additionally many fail to realize that the court is made up of individuals who hold their own views on various subjects and that those views can influence their decisions.
Further they don't understand that the role of the Supreme Court is to arbitrate when differences in interpretation of the Constitution occur. They have done that many times in the past and continue to do this to this day.

But if you point out to them that the original interpretation of the 2nd was that right to bear arms hinged on well ordered militias and was only reinterpreted in 2008 to mean the right of all citizens to bear arms in a future militia, they go quiet and ignore that decision completely.

They think the Constitution can only be interpreted the way they want it to be interpreted.
Again it is inviolate.

The complete failure to recognize contradictions.
A perfect example is the statement that assault weapons are no more dangerous than any other weapon, knife, scalpel, automobile, BB gun, shotgun, single shot .22 pistol, et. al.
Yet when you then suggest we get rid of assault weapons as any other thing such as a knife is just as dangerous and would therefore serve the same purpose and work just as well, they get very defensive and clutch those assault weapons ever tighter.

Projecting this onto other subjects we can see they have no understanding of what a contradiction is and therefore are greatly hampered when trying to understand various implications of other subjects.

The lack of understanding of magnitude, in the sense of greater and lesser ranking of variables.
This relates to the above failure to recognize contradictions in that many can't understand that the ability to accomplish an act with an object (A) that allows greater speed, damage, and accuracy than another object (B) is not the same object. A is different than B.
And more importantly object A operates on an order of magnitude above object B.

One bee in your bonnet is quite different than 100 bees in your bonnet.

The reliance on force and violence to solve all problems.
The only good way to stop a bad man with a gun is a good man with a gun.
Before even considering the fact that we have to assume bad men always have a gun, will always have a gun. and can never be prevented from having a gun; we are then led to believe that an act of violence must always be countered by another act of violence.
We aren't allowed to image any other means to counter violence. Shoot first ask questions later.

If a child hits another child with a stick, hit that child with a stick.

(I may add some more later...)
Click to expand...

You can make up whatever you like to help you sleep at night, but since what's collectively known as the bill of rights is made up of things that are called actual ammendments, to suggest that any opinion other than your own is held only by someone who's completely unwilling to accept changes or the possibility of them flies the face of the very document we're holding dear. Maybe you need to think outside your box.

And as for your bees in the bonnet analogy, 1, 100 or 1000, the bees are completely harmless and have no desire to kill themselves just to give you momentary discomfort. You've got nothing they want, let them be and they'll do the same.

I don't even know where to begin with your irrational shoot first and ask questions later fear. That's the criminal side of the issue. We're on the Defensive side.
And when a kid hits another with a stick, you don't hit them with a stick, you make absolutely certain that the kid knows to never hit anyone with anything ever again unless it's in defense. The whole babysit them with technology, give them a time out and a participation trophy while you're at it attitude hasn't turned out nearly as well as the I care about and love you but you'd better show respect and responsibility or I'll tan your hide attitude.
Fix that.
And magnitude is very important. If they enter your home illegally, and they leave dead, they can't ever do it again. It'd be nice if the legal system put them away so they couldn't repeat offend, but the left has turned that into a complete joke and left it up to the individual. Like it was back when they wrote the 2nd amendment in the first place.

Toecutter · Jun 15, 2022

Tyrsonswood said: ↑

Actually, No.

It's because that particular "modified rifle" is the one currently being used in mass shootings. I don't give a fuck what it "looks like".
Click to expand...

Tyrsonswood · Jun 15, 2022

You don't get it, apparently.

Eric! · Jun 15, 2022

mcme said: ↑

In their defense, the meme clearly says staff, not students.
Click to expand...

Oh, I know. But there’s some whacko out there that posted an article saying that it’s a good idea to arm all the students…
I’ll find it and post it later, I’m tired and just got off shift a bit ago.

mcme · Jun 15, 2022

Forgot this...

Flagme15 · Jun 15, 2022

MeAgain said: ↑

The belief that the Constitution is not open to interpretation, at least any interpretation that doesn't agree with their interpretation.
There seems to be little understanding that we have an entire branch of the government set up for just this purpose. It's called the Supreme Court.
Additionally many fail to realize that the court is made up of individuals who hold their own views on various subjects and that those views can influence their decisions.
Click to expand...

and nine people make decisions for 330 million people.

MeAgain said: ↑

The reliance on force and violence to solve all problems.
The only good way to stop a bad man with a gun is a good man with a gun.
Before even considering the fact that we have to assume bad men always have a gun, will always have a gun. and can never be prevented from having a gun; we are then led to believe that an act of violence must always be countered by another act of violence.
We aren't allowed to image any other means to counter violence. Shoot first ask questions later.
Click to expand...

The cowboy mentality. In the 1800s many western towns banned firearms.

Flagme15 · Jun 15, 2022

Toecutter said: ↑

Anyone that doesn’t agree with what you believe in is wrong in your eyes ?
Click to expand...

Oh, the irony.

Toecutter · Jun 15, 2022

Ohio ‘Permitless Carry’ law goes into effect Monday

CINCINNATI (WXIX) - Ohio’s “Permitless Carry” gun law goes into effect on June 13 after Gov. Mike DeWine signed the bill into law in March.

Ohioans 21 years old and older no longer need a permit or to complete the 8-hour handgun training course to carry and conceal a firearm. The law also eliminates requiring gun carriers to inform police officers that they have a concealed weapon on them.

Toecutter · Jun 15, 2022

Report: Gun Ownership Among Black Americans Continues to Surge

At that time, National African American Gun Association (NAAGA) president Philip Smith intimated that the very onset of the coronavirus made some black Americans give gun ownership serious thought for the first time: “If you have a half a brain in your head even saying, ‘Oh, this might get serious, let me plan accordingly.’”

On August 4, 2020, Breitbart observed National Shooting Sports Foundation numbers showing gun purchases by black men and women were up 58 percent from 2019.

Flagme15 · Jun 15, 2022

Toecutter said: ↑

Report: Gun Ownership Among Black Americans Continues to Surge

At that time, National African American Gun Association (NAAGA) president Philip Smith intimated that the very onset of the coronavirus made some black Americans give gun ownership serious thought for the first time: “If you have a half a brain in your head even saying, ‘Oh, this might get serious, let me plan accordingly.’”

On August 4, 2020, Breitbart observed National Shooting Sports Foundation numbers showing gun purchases by black men and women were up 58 percent from 2019.
Click to expand...

duh, it's to protect themselves from white supremacists.
One thing white people hate is that the 2A applies to African Americans also.

Toecutter · Jun 15, 2022

Flagme15 said: ↑

duh, it's to protect themselves from white supremacists.
One thing white people hate is that the 2A applies to African Americans also.
Click to expand...

Welcome to FBI.gov | Federal Bureau of Investigation

Expanded Homicide Data Table 6

Flagme15 · Jun 15, 2022

Toecutter said: ↑

Welcome to FBI.gov | Federal Bureau of Investigation

Expanded Homicide Data Table 6

View attachment 350144
Click to expand...

What is your point?

Toecutter · Jun 15, 2022

Flagme15 said: ↑

duh, it's to protect themselves from white supremacists.
One thing white people hate is that the 2A applies to African Americans also.
Click to expand...

Flagme15 said: ↑

What is your point?
Click to expand...

To provide the facts, just facts

Eric! · Jun 15, 2022

Ok, this is who I was talking about earlier

D Allan Kerr

(Read what HE suggests should happen to reduce mass shootings)

COMPLETELY NUTS!!!

Want to End School Shootings? Arm the Kids

Toecutter · Jun 15, 2022

Eric! said: ↑

Ok, this is who I was talking about earlier

D Allan Kerr

(Read what HE suggests should happen to reduce mass shootings)

COMPLETELY NUTS!!!

View attachment 350150

Want to End School Shootings? Arm the Kids
Click to expand...

I do not believe he is serious, he appears to be mocking various political ideas .

mcme · Jun 15, 2022

Eric! said: ↑

Ok, this is who I was talking about earlier

D Allan Kerr

(Read what HE suggests should happen to reduce mass shootings)

COMPLETELY NUTS!!!

View attachment 350150

Want to End School Shootings? Arm the Kids
Click to expand...

Yeah, not a good idea at all.

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