Is it time to talk about guns?

To the pro-gun lobby

Can you please stop rehashing and representing the same arguments that have already been presented many times before and found wanting.

If you have anything new or can actually address the many, many outstanding criticisms of the many pro-gun stance arguments already posted please do so.

Education

Many among the pro-gun lobby say they wish to educate those that are in favour of gun control

But actual education is not someone telling people what they should think without question.

Look at this thread some in the pro-gun lobby make a statement which when examined does not stand up to criticisms but the pro-gun lobby does not address the criticisms but just makes a new statement a new claim which again does not stand up to criticisms, or the pro-gun lobby makes a new statement or claim or just repeats one that has already had outstanding criticisms against it.

Just shouting – THIS IS THE TRUTH – Does not make it true or relevant or correct

And people that shout such things are not trying to educate or enter into honest debate they are just trying to indoctrinate.

 

Your Right to an Opinion Does Not Make Your Opinion Valid | Psychology Today
What is not true, however, is that an opinion is a fact. Alarmingly, most humans believe that their opinions are facts. We incorrectly believe that our thoughts are correct. I mean, if we think it, it must be true, right?

The History Of The US Gun Control Debate Explained - HistoryExtra
Modern governments are, of course, hostile to the idea of an armed public ready to resist, and most people believe a public with standard firearms would be useless against a well-equipped army. Nevertheless there are many examples of governments disarming their citizens in order to repress them, and of armed citizens putting up stiff resistance. As Alex Kozinski, an American federal judge, points out: “The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed – where the government refuses to stand for re-election and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once.”

 

Wrat1

So much has already been covered

Let us look at it from the other side - What if the guns are mainly in the hands of those that would support the introduction of an authoritarian government as long as it was their form of authoritarianism?

The Nazis increased the number of guns people that could have and actively encouraged their supporters to have guns and never moved against those gun owers.

What if a political group claimed untruthfully that an election they lost was dishonest (stolen) and used that ‘big lie’ to bring in voter suppression laws that would make it easier for them to win future elections – but what if those that had guns actually supported that move.

What if a political group packed the courts with political supporters that were more likely to favourer their party line and what if those that had guns actually supported that move.

What if one political group pushes the idea that any media that doesn’t follow their party line is ‘fake news’ and that anyone that protests for social and political progress are ‘terrorist’ and those that have guns actually believe those lies.

*

Why didn’t those that could own guns use them to oppose the suppression, segregation and even murder of black people in so many US states? It was clearly tyranny and wrong so why didn’t they act?

 

Wrat1

Can the opinion be defended in any rational and reasonable way?

So lets see which opinion would you think had the most merit

Opinion A - that is backed up by rational and reasonable argument, evidence, comparison, research and statistics and the person giving it is very happy and willing to answer questions and address criticisms.

Or

Opinion B – for which none of the above is true

 

I would like to enjoy more freedom tomorrow than I did yesterday. Which side of this little quarrel is going to give me that?

 

As in "freedom to carry an assault rifle into a pub with a bandolier of six 30 round magazines", or "freedom to send your child to the movies, elementary school, the mall, the grocery store, the synagogue, Wal-Mart, high school, a concert, college, church, or the 7-11 for a bag of Skittles with the reasonable expectation that they return home alive"?

 

Cello

You would have to explain your argument.

Do you think guns are a guarantor of civil rights and freedoms?

You could ask yourself the question of why didn’t those that could own guns use them to oppose the suppression, segregation and even murder of black people in many US states? It was clearly tyranny and wrong so why didn’t they act?

 

I sort of have both now, I guess, although a lot of that stuff was closed the last time I checked. I've never carried a Mosin-Nagant around in public, but I did have some Black Power friends who enjoyed doing that. They bought a stockpile of those Soviet assault rifles, cleaned them up, bought alot of ammo and marched around everywhere for awhile. It made them feel empowered or something. Whatever floats your boat.

 

I don't argue much anymore. I just smile.

Nobody's guns helped me last November. They told me I had already voted! Still waiting for the Election Commission to tell me who I voted for. Guess it doesn't really matter.

We still have Jim Crow laws here in North Carolina. You have to visit your county sheriff to get permission to purchase a handgun. This was to prevent African Americans from purchasing handguns. I see African Americans all the time doing the open carry thing now, like the Wild West. It's some kind of fad. It's not my thing, but it seems to make other people happy. Race relations are really good in my neighborhood.

 

Shane

Well since I’ve already said I’m not sure what your argument is here in relation to the subject in that if you actually wish to lessen the possibility of guns falling into the hands of the criminal and irresponsible, then you really need to explain your thinking.

You said - Why is a locked home not good enough or vehicle not secure enough – in relation to securing a gun

And I had already explained that If a criminal gets into a house and steals a TV that TV is not a weapon and very unlikely to be used as one - so I think a gun which is a very lethal weapon needs to be more securely locked away than a TV

Do you actually know where you are going with this repetition?

 

Cello

OK so you didn’t really know what you were saying or wanted to say – fine – when you do please let us know

 

Depends on what you mean by freedom: freedom from what or to do what. Freedom from fear of being gunned down when you go to the shopping center? I'd say the side advocating sensible gun control is more likely to give you that. Freedom to take up arms against your government and get yourself shot? The NRA would seem to be the side for you. As for myself, I don't think guns have anything to do with my freedom to do the things I want to do, or avoid the things I don't want. Religious freedom, economic freedom and the freedom to have my vote count are the important ones for me. My Retrumplican state just voted to immunize folks who run over protestors who block streets. Whether that increases freedom for motorists or decreases freedom for people exercising their First Amendment rights (there is an amendment before the second one) depends on what side of the political divide you see yourself on.

And there's also the matter of freedom from whom. I think the militia types who show up armed to the teeth at state capitols like Michigan to intimidate our lawmakers are far more threatening to my freedom than the governments that pass reasonable restrictions in the interest of public health and safety.

 

Freedom.

 

Cello

LOL freedom from thinking or thought?

 

I am not afraid to go shopping.

That would be insane.

That's me. I don't see any need to take away other peoples' fun though. My African American neighbors are really nice. They like to ride motorcycles and carry their handguns on their hip and all that stuff. I don't think they are any danger to me. They are just doing their thing.

BLM blocked the streets here and the police re-routed traffic. No vehicles or protesters were harmed. The protestors seemed to be having a really fun time and the drivers were not terribly inconvenienced. Nobody was cursing or hurting anyone or breaking things.

Armed militia groups do not make me nervous - as long as they handle their weapons properly. Being held at gunpoint is no fun. Police officers have pointed guns at me but so far I've been able to keep them calm and get them to put those things away.

 

Freedom from all anxiety.

 

The duality of life?
"With the concept of duality it is said that you can’t fully understand one side of the dual nature of something without comparing and fully understanding the opposing side. For example, you couldn’t understand what the concept of ‘up’ is without having a ‘down’ to compare and contrast to. Same applies for in-out, hot-cold, sweet-sour, young-old, male-female, liberal-conservative, and on and on, the list goes. If we don’t have an opposing counterpart, then it can’t have any value to us."
Life Is Complex: Let's Talk About The Duality of Life and Death | Psychreg

 

I think it's a good one however you overlook the angle where it's not so much that either condition exists presently but rather that history has shown repeatedly instances where once benevolent leadership has either degraded through inbreeding and such or flipped the fascist switch following some military coup and despite all sentiments of merican sepshinalism realize we are not immune from either scenario

 

Is it all about you?

Yes. We saw some of that insanity at work last January 6.

But then we have a record of other people just doing their thing. As of the end of last month, there were 104 mass shootings in the U.S. in 29 states. Do we have to just put up with that because your neighbors are responsible gun owners?

So I take it you think these new laws passed or proposed in 25 states are unnecessary.

Given their behavior on January 6, I don't think they can be trusted to handle their weapons responsibly. As for the police, dare I ask what your skin tone i?. There have been some folks who were less successful getting them to remain calm and put those things away: George Floyd,Tamir Rice, Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Philando Castile, Breonna Taylor, Daunte Wright, Andrew Brown ,Jr., etc.