Is it time to talk about guns?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Balbus, Mar 24, 2021.

  1. Balbus

    Balbus Members

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    The problem is that originalism is a basically a con – it’s a way for a judge to make a decision, then blame it on someone else, so that they don’t have to take the blame for their own decision.

    Judge – I’ve looked back at what the framers thought and have come to this decision

    Advocate – Well that does fit in with your known political views but that seems like a bad decision because A,B,C,D and E

    Judge – don’t blame me for that decision ask the framers why ‘they’ though that way

    *

    And it doesn’t make sense we do not live in the 18th century.

    Imagine you went to a Doctor and they said they had got back all your results from the X-rays, MRI scan, and full blood analysis and it all points to you having Gregs Complaint which can be cured by taking this cocktail of drugs BUT then they tell you that they are going to disregard all that and instead use a book written in by 1788 by a group of long dead physicians that says you have an imbalance of humours that can be treated by you been bleed by leaches.

    You complain and the Doctor says it is out of their hands and blame it on the long dead physicians
     
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  2. wrat1

    wrat1 Members

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    The 2nd amendment was written in order to protect citizens from a tyrannical government , in order for it to be effective citizens need access to the SAME HARDWARE the said government would use against them whatever that may be.
     
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  3. wrat1

    wrat1 Members

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    unfortunately thats a non relevant emotion based question
     
  4. wrat1

    wrat1 Members

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    the number of gun deaths has nothing to do with why the 2nd amendment was written
     
  5. Balbus

    Balbus Members

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    wrat1

    So when do you start murdering police officers and your fellow citizens?

    In other words what to you define as tyrannical and when do you use your gun to counter it?

    I mean is voter suppression a step toward tyranny?

    Why do so many right wing gun owners seem actually in favour of it not opposed?

    If you look at US history actually guns in the hands of citizens were more often used as a means towards suppression and tyranny than not.
     
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  6. Captain Scarlet

    Captain Scarlet Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    In my opinion there is never a good time to talk about guns . Firearms were designed to do one function ie Kill.

    They should be just left in the hands of trained professionals and then only used as a last resort.
     
  7. wrat1

    wrat1 Members

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    Firstly I dont own any firearms, secondly I believe there are already gun laws on the books, discussion is always good, I think and I may be wrong what you are looking for is a ban or total control if not feel free to correct me.

    as to your last point again not relevant the death penalty and the 2nd amendment are separate issues
     
  8. wrat1

    wrat1 Members

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    Your first statement is baiting so if you choose to go that route I will bow out,
    2nd I would say Trump was pretty damn close to tyrannical
    Yes it is
    please clarify third statement
    clarify and expound on last statement

    Oh and BTW I own exactly ZERO firearms
     
  9. Balbus

    Balbus Members

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    Wrat1

    Why is it baiting – it would seem the most germane of questions - if people have guns to protect against tyranny at some point that would entail them using them against others

    And many gun owners supported Trump – in fact guns featured prominently in many pro-trump demonstrations

    But again at what point should people have used guns to opposed Trump?

    So how can guns be used to counter voter suppression?

    That was a question - Why do so many right wing gun owners seem actually in favour of it [voter suppression] not opposed?

    OK during the time when black American citizens were been suppressed under what seem like tyrannical rule, gun in the hands of citizens were used as weapons of suppression not liberation.
     
  10. Piobaire

    Piobaire Senior Village Idiot

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    By all means; please show the class where any of that appears in the text of the 2nd Amendment.
     
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  11. Balbus

    Balbus Members

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    Gun control proposals

    Here is an edit list of something I’ve posted a few times on the forums that was formed from a couple of lists me and MeAgain had presented at differing times.

    *

    Educate people about what the new legislation is about and would entail (Not taking away all guns, the goal is to reduce harm by limiting easy access to the criminal and irresponsible)

    Reinforcing, enhancing, and mandating back ground checks for the purchase of a gun.

    Immediate destruction of any weapon, ammunition, etc. used or acquired illegally.

    Limiting the amount of legal ammunition that can be bought and retained.

    Buyback programs - to get rid of or lower the number of midnight specials, assault weapons, etc.

    All gun owners would need to pass a test of competence and responsibility to get a gun licence (part of which would be to pass a psychological evaluation)

    A gun owner would need an up to date licence and insurance to carry on owning a gun (been found owning a gun without these will result in fine or and been banned from owning a gun).

    Mandatory records of all sells or transfers of all firearms and immediate destruction of any that are discovered to be not recorded.

    Any gun kept at home, place of work or in a motor vehicle would have to be held in a secure manner (eg safe or other secure locking system).

    People that didn’t have an approved system would not be allowed to own a gun.

    If a person loses or has their gun stolen, and it is shown that they did not show due diligence in securing their weapon they would be subject to a fine and/or banned from owning a gun.

    Any guns would have to be presented for inspection 6 months after purchase then again one year after purchase and then every five years after that. Not presenting the gun would result in a fine losing the owner’s gun license (to deter straw purchases)

    If the gun has been lost or stolen and that has not been reported that would result in a heavy fine and/or custodial sentence.

    *

    These would be national laws the same through all the states and a Federal department would be set up to monitor them and make sure they are been enforced equally throughout the country.

    The fines raised and a tax on firearms manufactures would be used to offset cost of these programmes.

    *

    These are just suggestions and if people think of improvements please post your ideas.
     
  12. wrat1

    wrat1 Members

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    Why was the 2nd amendment written?
     
  13. Tyrsonswood

    Tyrsonswood Senior Moment Lifetime Supporter

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    Just another day in 'Murica.

    After all, you need a semiautomatic rifle, a shotgun and four handguns, just to go shopping these days.... You know, "for protection"


    Atlanta man arrested with 6 guns, body armor at Publix grocery store
     
  14. wrat1

    wrat1 Members

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    your question asked when it was ok to kill cops and citizens the 2nd amendment says nothing about this

    I have no answer

    lack of education?

    again imo and the wording and time frame would appear to back me up
    the 2nd amendment was created solely to prevent the government from harming its citizens by giving them the means to protect themselves.
    it sounds so trite but the fact is when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns, criminals dont pay attention to laws.

    Ive chosen not to own a gun and fact is it could be to our detriment we are pretty rural and it would take at least 20 min or more for any sort of police to locate us, I do however like the choice of being able after filing out some paperwork the option of purchasing a gun.

    why do you need a license to drive but any moron can have kids?
     
  15. wrat1

    wrat1 Members

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  16. Balbus

    Balbus Members

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    Wrat1

    You said ‘The 2nd amendment was written in order to protect citizens from a tyrannical government’ – again if people have guns to protect against tyranny at some point that would entail them using them against others so when do they begin shooting people?

    You don’t know when guns should be used - if ever – so what is the point of having them to counter tyranny

    So you want people that don’t know if something is tyrannical or not to decide what is tyrannical – how does that work?

    Which brings us back to when the guns would be used to kill political opponents?

    Well first this is not about banning guns and is about trying to lessen the number that get into criminals’ hands as most of those are bought legally.

    But again you still don’t seem able to explain why you think guns are effective against tyranny – when you don’t seem to be able to say when they would be used and that traditionally in the US that hasn’t been the case?
     
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  17. wrat1

    wrat1 Members

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    so you are trying to say that criminals are buying guns legally?

    what I said was the 2nd amendment was intended to protect citizens from a tyrannical government,
    "The Second Amendment, ratified in 1791, was proposed by James Madison to allow the creation of civilian forces that can counteract a tyrannical federal government."

    what I think does not matter in context of the 2nd amendment and its stated purpose

    Just because I have no answer does not make it right or wrong just that fortunately I have not been placed in that situation
     
  18. Balbus

    Balbus Members

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    Wrat1

    I said legally bought guns get into the hands of criminals according to the FBI this is usually through getting others to purchase them or through theft.

    But again you still don’t seem able to explain why you think guns would be effective against tyranny – when you don’t seem to be able to say when they would be used and that traditionally in the US that hasn’t been the case?

    Citation needed – I can’t find this. And I’d counter that traditionally in the US that has not happened even in cases like the treatment of Black citizens where tyranny was very apparent. So if this was the intention it failed and therefore it is not fit for purpose.

    So you are saying you have no rational or reasonable argument in support of the Second Amendment – which begs the question why do you support it?
     
  19. wrat1

    wrat1 Members

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    Second Amendment | Text, Meaning, Definition, & History | Britannica
    "The Second Amendment, ratified in 1791, was proposed by James Madison to allow the creation of civilian forces that can counteract a tyrannical federal government. Anti-Federalists believed that a centralized standing military, established by the Constitutional Convention, gave the federal government too much power and potential for violent oppression."

    I support the 2nd amendment because I like choice.

    As to the treatment of black citizens and tyranny against them was this perpetuated by and large BY THE GOVERNMENT or by groups such as the KKK etc?
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2021
  20. Mallyboppa

    Mallyboppa Nails Mc Fugger

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    Why Did I like it ? Why is it important to you to know that , ( But probably that I agree with her ! ) Happy now ?
     

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