For the record, it's very rude to go back and add comments to your posts. If you have further comments that you want to express, then post a second time. I think you'll find that a very large number of people find that joke quite funny. Given the speed at which it's been circulating via email, I'd say lots of people find it hilarious. In fact, its raised a lot of laughs at my workplace, where most people are football supporters. Don't blame me if you don't get satire.
Sorry maybe it was rude... i was going to just respond to showmet. Then i thought what the hell...lets drag this little fight on a bit. as we can't meet at dawn pistols flaring or joust with each other...and get all this 'is it funny' ' is it not' ... out of the way. third time:
Fair enough if that's your only reason, which is why I asked what your purpose was. I'm not asking you to remove the link at all, that's ridiculous! But if you can't see anything wrong with the stuff I've just quoted, then something's blinding you. Be proud to be English by all means but at least look at an honest account of your own history. Personally, I think national pride is divisive and potentially destructive. Aren't we all just people at the end of the day? Does the fact that we were born into a different country and culture make us better than anyone else? And seeing as you mentioned that you're of mixed race, how many of us are 'pure' English? I was born to English parents in England. I am English. But my great-grandfather was Polish. How far back should my association with English history traverse? How many others have Irish, Welsh or Scottish blood in them? Where do you draw the line? I find it worrying that you don't see anything wrong with that site.
The point still seems to escape you though, because in your last post you were still saying: Either you accept that it's a joke that many people will find funny, or you think it's just my personal twisted sense of humour. Make your mind up.
Make my mind up ok... I thought YOU posted it as a joke ... that was not apparent as a joke to ME. so i responded to it. YOU were upset with my somewhat OTT response , i did my best to simmer it down. I think we moved on from there , and moved onto if it was funny. You could not see that i did not find it funny . .. But i STILL don't find it funny. Sorry about that... personaly most of the people i know have a fixed identity , i personaly don't have much to cling to.. if it says British/English on your passport its supposed to mean something , same as your religous belief. I would not mind taking it back from both camps and just using it as a identifier... i read a bit of the website...and it is a bit 'bulldogish' but not in any way rascist i did not see.. just because they want to be proud to be English and not feel ashamed about . I don't see much wrong with that.. its quite positive in a funny kind of way. I wish i had just left the quote.. There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is ENGLAND." Sir Winston Churchill it sums up how i feel most of the time....well okay when i think about such things. I not going to defend the website in anyway... From what i read they have lots of policies wich is something of a shock..On most fringe party websites the policies are rather thin on the ground.... i intend to read all about them now just for curiosity. I am getting a ice cream headache
You're still missing the point. You're quite welcome to not find it funny. The issue that I had was that you were insinuating that it was objectively not funny.
I think somewere along the line i just said i did not find it funny... but you were actulay questioning WHY i did not find it funny. If you want me to intellectualise WHY i did not find it funny. It has something to do with the fact that it is quietly mocking something for more than likely the right reasons but in a very elitist fashion.
It only seems like i am insinuating that it was objectively not funny...because i have had to repeat myself more than once. i don't have to go all deep and meaningful with every thought i say..maybe i was insinuating that it was objectively not funny.. but i fear your only being a pain about all that because i was maybe a little rude too YOU..of wich i have tried to eat humble pie..you can't be that bloody preciouse can you
I'm not sure what you mean here - do you mean identity as in English or a personal identity like goth or punk (not that I'm suggesting that you hang out with either! ) In 1952 there was an intake of West Indians with British Passports who were responding to English job adverts in their homelands due to the labour shortage in this country. The British passport gave them the entitlement to live in this country but it didn't make them who they are. They suffered from racism all the same. Your passport does not define you. What happens when somebody moves abroad and applies for a foreign passport? Does it mean that their identity changes? A passport means that you have particular rights according to your nationality. It shows your identity in a physical way, i.e. your photo, and has your d.o.b. How does that define you? To say that it's the same as a religious belief is absurd. What if you don't have a religious belief? Does that mean you aren't anything? This doesn't make any sense. Since when has religion had anything to do with a passport? It is only an identifier. Unless of course you choose to judge someone on their passport (c'mon, some of those pictures can be pretty unfair ) No, what I said was that it has undercurrents of racism. That means it's not saying 'I'm proud to be English because those French are tossers', it's openly saying 'I'm proud to be English because we're such a wonderful people who've achieved so many amazing things which, because we are so wonderful, have shared with the world, and we are superior to everyone because of this' There is a HUGE racist implication there. We are better than everyone else, again I quote: It is a blatant superiority complex. Thinking you are better than every other country/culture breeds racism. Like I said, feel proud by all means, but a lot of patriot attitudes fail to look at the negative side of history. And if you're going to take the credit for all the wonderful things that England has achieved in its' history, why shouldn't you feel the shame for the appalling things it's done too? If a man raped someone and in the same year gave £1million to charity, should his mother feel proud of him?
I meant they can say that they are indian latvian irish and so on.... as just a boring old English man i can't say i am an English with out people saying i should embrace my other 'culture' in my case that being black culture and that identity. I don't want to do that . .... i was born in England and thats what i identify with. The bad history/reputation we had or may still have is blighting the fact that Engish is not on the whole bad . I fist posted on this thread about people jumping up at the mere mention of the English flag and banging on about its diffrent conatations .... FFS why do we need this... It serves a purpose talking down about the English flag and all that it conjures up...but personaly i am bored by it all.... if i was that way inclined i would have a flag draped over my front door all year round ... thats an extreme way to go about things i admit. My very dull point is that i am English , the flag of England is in the fabric of that ...i just want to move on from the negativity it should not longer have .. call me old fashioned. The fact that we have diffrent passports says that this is to identify the country that you wish to reside in... I have a British passport and in that it says i am English...that says that i am of BRITISH origin and that i am ENGLISH ... that is my identity ... i change that i change my identity... I am not NO.6 i am not a prisoner.. We all need an identity , this makes it clear. It is all meaningless in the grand scheme of things and i am aware i may be one step away from buying a bulldog but you asked.. What do you want ... England sailing out of most of the sporting events... the crushing military defeats. All that can be found somewere else. I can spot racism everywere if i wish...its just OTT pride ... thats all. From the crushing negativity you need a OTT response.. But personaly i don't think it was that extreme. What would be your ideal..how do you go about stating your identity (both of you).
This is the heart of the matter, really. Identity is not something that's truly to be found externally. Your identity is who you are, not who someone else is or was. Are there aspects of Britishness that I relate to? Most certainly. It's the culture within which I was raised, and that is bound to imbue certain common experiences. It's a mistake to equate this with a sense of identity or patriotism though. There are many facets of my life which could bond me to others through shared experience, and yet because national identity is sold to us as important, and surrounded on all sides with pomp and ceremony, it's this with which I'm expected to bond. Would it not be more rational to consider myself a hippy before I consider myself British? With other hippies, there's a much greater connection - a direct sharing of ideas and beliefs. Is this not more important an identity than where I grew up? Surely there's more to connect me with other hippies than with the other millions of British people, many of whom would despise or reject me for what they would see as extreme beliefs? You also have to ask who is served by nationalism and patriotism. It didn't spring from nowhere. It's been fuelled and encouraged by governments and the ruling elite, to encourage you to fight to defend their wealth. When German soldiers were invading France, do you not think that their hearts swelled with pride in their country as they were swept up in patriotic zeal? And yet what were they proud of? Who were they really fighting for? Themselves? I think not. When they lay bleeding to death on the beaches of Normandy, was it because they'd been fighting for a noble ideal? Were they defending something of their own, or the wealth that their leaders would've taken for themselves? This is patriotism. Sure, it seems harmless when it's just waving the flag at an England match, but it encourages a senseless devotion to a false ideal of nationhood. It discourages our questioning, and would have us act not on behalf of what is right and wrong, but rather because our country demands our loyalty. What folly. We're all lonely creatures in this world, and seeking a pack with which to bond is a fundamental way in which we address this. It started with tribes, and has now blossomed into nations. At least when we knew our whole tribe, we were generally bonded to people with whom we shared common needs. Now though, we look for identity in a faceless entity that's too big to have any personal relevance to us, when the real challenge is to stand as individuals, and form meaningful bonds with those around us with whom we share a connection stronger than a flag.
Right Kids! Grab some crayons and get stenciling! Ooh, or fingerpaint?!? Whatever you like dollface, tye-dye perhaps? The question of "my country, your country" is ultimately, bullshit. Sure, each persons nationality gives them a sense of identity, and that identity is perceived generally, on an individual level i.e. englishman (like me, although i have celtic blood - Kernow + Gaelic) meeting an American, or a Lithuanian - that meeting, and the preconceptions both parties bring to that meeting, defines the sense of identity that we presume to lay down on each other, and clouds the process of ACTUALLY getting to know eachother! It's ridiculous. The stronger the difference in culture it seems, the stronger the attraction/de-attraction - i myself find "ethnic" (anything besides white basically ) ladies my favourite, and their locations my most eager travel destinations. Some people are different, they're afraid. Some footy mad lager louts might have a poster of halle berry, or love Sister Act, but might refer to the very talented former world best striker George Weah (Liberia, i believe) as a "half-decent jungle bunny". They're just too dumb and confused and trapped to have a valid opinion. Sorry, but its true. The first step is realising that first off, people are people and they have their good and bad points - otherwise known as Differences, and that flags, countries, yes even football teams, mean something different to everything that perceives them,from every angle. At the end of the day, its wierd to be arguing, nay even killing people for the sake of where they were born/spawned on this very large spinning ball of rock - ITS NOT AS IF THOSE LINES AND COLOURS ON THE MAP ARE REAL!!! Look at the ground Fools! It's my opinion that its more than just coincidence that nationalisms getting a bit of a stirring-up (D-Day celebrations, Euro 2004, maybe a new monarch soon? what other tricks will they pull i wonder to currupt our population to self-destruction?) I thought I'd mention, ive read virtually none of the other pages besides from 1/5/this one...sorry, and i'm not targeting anyone inparticular with what i say, so don't bitch-slap me too hard
I just realised, i've alienated every "thoroughbred lass in town"!! : i myself find "ethnic" (anything besides white basically ) ladies my favourite, and their locations my most eager travel destinations. Girls, i say my favourite, doesn't mean i discriminate! But looking back on my pattern of ex's, it's hard to argue with myself. Maybe it's them finding me irrestistable (hopefully it's become quite clear that differences of culture, language, religion?, physicality and the rest are actually the spice of life and what keeps us growing up as a race...the key's seeing them all compliment each other )
So if there was a hippie flag you would fly it..?? Answer that question ... and we would probably agree with each other. That 'answer' is what i am realy trying to say in a rather hap hazed fashion. Even though you have obviosly not answered yet...i can sense i would agree with it. Most of us have 'extreme' beliefs in others eyes...even mixed up me.
The only good thing about it is I bought one to take back to Canada with me when I leave in August. I wanted something to remember England with but didn't want a huge flag. I bought one I am going to take it off its little stick thing and pin it on the wall when I get back to Canada. They all drive me nuts. Driving aorund with those stupid flags. I have seen guys with the big flags as well and that is really stupid as I am sure it make driving a hazard as they can't see properly. I have never understood how football rules so many peoples lives in this country. Yes we love our sports in Canada but not to the extreme some people take it here. I mean from another thread stabbing people because their team own how sick is that. I agree burn them all except mine as it is getting exported and is not on a car. Love & No Flags ( well maybe one little one) EnonEmouse
Nope. Not in a million years. I'm an individual. Every hippy is an individual. I may identify more strongly with hippies as a social group, but I still recognise that there are just as many things that divide us as unite us, so flying a hippy flag would be just as ridiculous as flying an England flag. Give me a flag that stood for an idea rather than a tribe, and that flag I might fly.
Gee whiz DoktorAtomik Your going to have to explain how a flag can stand for a idea...do you mean something like the multitude of ribbons that are about or the gay multistriped flag.. This (no offense) sounds a little flakey... Or is my asumption , not in line with having individual thoughts.
A flag that stands for peace, or for love, or for an ideal... not a flag that stands for a nation or a tribe. But then I really have no interest in flags at all really. They simply seek to reduce complex ideas to infantile simplicity. What need for flags? Huh? What, exactly?
