Is it just me...?

Discussion in 'U.K.' started by JOsie, Jun 7, 2004.

  1. matthew

    matthew Almost sexy

    I started from the top and was just waiting for some one to comment on nationalism and all that jazz... i was not let down.... gee whizz England are about to be playing in a game i heard is called foot-ball.. lets not look for some right wing conspiracys in everything .... You do have more of a point than i do ... but again gee whizz ...................
     
  2. Spyder

    Spyder La dah de dah

    my mates got one on his car...it looks well sad, i aint getting in the car with him
     
  3. Merlin

    Merlin Member

    I think more than anything it's likely to be England's exit from Euro 2004 which will initiate the removal of all the St. George's flags.
     
  4. JOsie

    JOsie Member

    wheres the fun in life if you can't wear your tin foil beanie and post your ultra lefist anti brainwashing anti government anti consumerism anti capitalist newsletter to people who just want to point out that theres no such thing as aliens...fools...they'll see...

    nyaargh
     
  5. Paul

    Paul Cheap and Cheerful

    I've got a great big 5ft England flag that I flew from my van on St. Georges day for that day only, I'm not going to fly it while the football is on because I hate football. (At other times I've got a Jolly Roger)

    In recent years it has become almost unacceptable to say that you are English rather than British, celebrating your nationality seems to be fine if you are Scottish or Welsh, but if you are English it supposedly makes you racist.

    The Scots are Scots, the Welsh are Welsh but it seems the English are just supposed to remain British.

    In the last census you were able to tick the box marked 'Scottish', there was also one for 'Irish' yet the Welsh and English were left only the opportunity to describe themselves as 'White British'.

    Can someone tell me why that is? Why is it so bad to be English?

    Incidentally the BNP use the Union Flag and not the cross of St. George. Forgetting the rights and wrongs of war, remember that it was people fighting under the British flag that stood up to the Nazi war machine. It is only a small minority of extremists that want to tarnish the image of this flag.

    I am glad (as opposed to proud) that I am English, this country has a great deal of history that we should not be ashamed of. The good that has come from this country should be celebrated.

    England is not perfect and some of our history is downright disgracful but we are not the only nation with blood on its hands and we have a lot to shout about too. Alfred the great, Stonehenge, the Magna Carta, Shakespeare, Brunel, Babbage, the national health service, our education system, the BBC and more. It was an Englishman, Tim Berners Lee, who invented the World Wide Web and HTML code.

    The structure, the legends and the history of this country makes us unique and respected worldwide.

    We have fought off invasion after invasion. For nearly 1,000 England has remained free and independent. We have a history of tolerence and of charity; our welfare state is second to none.

    Nothing wrong with celebrating the good side of England. The same as there is nothing wrong with supporting the good side of any other country.

    ________________________

    St George was a Roman soldier who was tortured to death in Palestine around 300AD for refusing to renounce his faith. He was probably Turkish or possibly Palestinian, definitely not English.

    In the Middle East, Christians invoke him to exorcise demons. In many countries St George is associated with fertility and his day marks the beginning of summer. In Lithuania he is revered as the guardian of animals and in parts of Spain his day is celebrated with feasts and gift giving.

    During the early part of the crusades it was the French who wore red crosses. The English actually wore white crosses on blue backgrounds and St Thomas of Canterbury was the English patron saint. Legend says that St. George appeared to Richard the Lionheart waving a red-cross banner in 1189, howver the first definite known appearance of the banner of St George was around 1300 at the siege of Caerlaverock.
     
  6. JOsie

    JOsie Member

    but why not celebrate the good side of people as a whole instead of where the person came from...?
     
  7. DoktorAtomik

    DoktorAtomik Closed For Business

    There's nothing at all wrong with being English. I like your distinction between being glad to be English and being proud to be English. That's a very sensible attitude in my opinion.


    The problem is not so much about being English. Nor is it about supporting a football team. Where the issue arises is when this form of symbolic identity with an institution transforms into nationalism and tribalism.

    The notion of being 'proud' to be British (or English), or being 'proud' of your football team even, is ridiculous. Pride is a lack of modesty for starters, and has never been a virtue as far as I'm aware. But if you're going to feel any pride at all, why should it be in others? Why should you feel 'proud' of England any more than you feel 'proud' of Australia? Is it because you're 'from' England? Well you're 'from' the world. So why not feel 'proud' of anyone? 'Pride' in a national identity is therefore an excuse for partisanship and division.

    We're often told we should be proud to be English, and we should have a sense of patriotism. Why? Can anyone explain to me what this achieves? Is it in order to encourage us to struggle more to improve our country's standing in the world? Do we want to do better than others? Isn't that encouraging competition and division, when really we should be encouraging co-operation and consolidation? When German soldiers were fighting and dying for Hitler, don't you think they felt a pride in Germany and a sense of patriotism? Was that such a good thing?

    I enjoy my English heritage. There's much about this country that I love. If I could choose a country in which to be born, I would've chosen England. That's not the same thing s pride and patriotism though. I don't feel a false sense of connection with the other 70 million residents of Britain whom I've never met (and with whom I may have nothing in common) beyond the same connection I feel with any human resident of Earth. I feel more of a connection with those people who share common interests and ideals with myself - and they're just as likely to come from Australia as England.
     
  8. Merlin

    Merlin Member

    I guess I'm of the opinion that there's nothing wrong with not being English, that there's nothing wrong with not being patriotic. I think the most recent couple of generations of people in England (and many other nations I imagine) are the first to really challenge the notion that one must be patriotic, or even that it is recommended that one must be patriotic. So, I think their resentment upon seeing all these St. George's flags everywhere shortly before Euro 2004 is quite reactionary, but I can see their point.

    All countries, have a history, all have a heritage. I could say yeah England is great it has a unique heritage and history etc. but that would probably only because I happened to have been born & grown up in England. If it had been Wales then I'd say it was Wales with the unique culture, heritage. If it was Australia I'd say Australia etc etc...

    I think Britain does have some very good things about it, I'd never suggest otherwise. It has things about it which suck. It has good history and bad. I don't know of a nation which doesn't. But,I think the good and the bad do kind of even themselves out to the point where I can't say that I'm proud or ashamed of the country. It's just a country to me. Nothing more, nothing less.

    But then like I say, maybe I think that way because the only place I'm patriotic about is the Universe.
     
  9. kier

    kier I R Baboon

    i say display other flags...preferably those who are going to play england...so fly some french flags for a bit :) a friend of ours flew a brazilian (sp?) flag for quite a while, made me laugh...down the road was the stereotypical england flag flying, and then there's our mate with his flag :D
     
  10. Paul

    Paul Cheap and Cheerful

    Well how can you be proud of something over which you have no choice? It's like being proud to be white or proud to be black, it just doesn't add up.

    I think that people get muddled up with identifying the feeling they have when thinking of all things patriotic. At the moment we have the D-Day celebrations, but they don't make me feel proud to be British, the feelings I have had when reading about WW2 are usually a mixture of horror, sadness and gratitude.

    I think grateful is a much more appropriate word when I think about being English.
     
  11. showmet

    showmet olen tomppeli

    Nitpicking a bit, but at the 2001 census Britain's population was 58.8 million, a couple of million less than had been predicted. Unless you're including those 12 million asylum seekers the Daily Mail thinks we've let in over the last year! :p
     
  12. DoktorAtomik

    DoktorAtomik Closed For Business

    Blow me :p
     
  13. Man_In_A_Shed

    Man_In_A_Shed Member

    I think everybody should get Latvia flags for Euro 2004. Not only are they cleary an amazing football nation, but their players have cool names like Blagonadezdins, Verpakovskis and Prohorenkovs. So if you are fed up of seeing the St Georges cross, you could always pay tribute to good ol' Latvia.
     
  14. showmet

    showmet olen tomppeli

    Great idea, but where would you get them from?
     
  15. butterfly

    butterfly Member

    I don't care about small flags, but I do care about the effect on the environment they are having when attached to cars! Just think of the increase in drag! The lowering of the effieciency of the car! Should be banned on that alone!
     
  16. Man_In_A_Shed

    Man_In_A_Shed Member

  17. matthew

    matthew Almost sexy

    1 person i could cope with , but there were at least 2 . Thats way too much..The mention of the England flag always fires people imaginations ...i will blame the heat for my humbugishness ... :)

    Viva St George cuz my birthday is on 23/4 ... National Holiday please Mr blair.



    Phew its HOT
     
  18. DoktorAtomik

    DoktorAtomik Closed For Business

    This sums up my feelings nicely.....

    [​IMG]
     
  19. matthew

    matthew Almost sexy




    :confused:

    People like you make mountains out of mole hills. I have spotted many diffrent ethnicities supporting the england team with these type of flags ... i suppose you think they are just trying to be 'good little brits' . you create tension that is not realy there .

    ENGLAND are playing Football and people want to support there team..


    [pleasant thoughts] .
     
  20. showmet

    showmet olen tomppeli

    free nil, freeeee-nil, free nil, free nil

    ahh, couldn't you just beat up a foreigner?

    :p
     

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