Is God 1 or 3? [Or] Is Jesus God or part of God? [Let the Gospel answer]

Jatom
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Shall I ignore this or what? It is the insisting on taking off the topic! Ignore that I am a Muslim!
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Allah had sent prophets and messengers to show people his religion and how to worship him, every prophet had something special from God to be a proof that he is the messenger of God. And that special thing called '' Miracle'' Moses sent to his people in a time which was the magic (witchcraft) widespread so one of his miracles is to turn his stick to a manifest serpent, So, Allah has supported his last prophet Muhammad with many miracles and much evidences which prove that he is a true prophet sent by God. Prophet Muhammad sent to people which was the writing poems (poetry) widespread, so one of his miracles was this Quraan. Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) brought an Arabic Quraan from Allah that is the peak of eloquence and clarity.
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Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) was raised illiterate, unable to read or write, and remained like that till his death. Among all his people, he was known as being truthful and trustworthy. Before receiving revelation, he had no prior knowledge of Religion or any previously sent Message. He remained like that till the Revelation came to him with the Quraan. This Quraan mentioned most of the accounts found in the previous scriptures, telling us about these events in the greatest detail as if he witnessed them. These accounts came precisely as they were found in the Torah sent down to Moses and in the Gospel sent down to Jesus. Neither the Jews nor Christians were able to belie him regarding anything that he said Allah stated: '' Neither did you (O Muhammad) read any book before it (this Quraan), nor did you write any book (whatsoever) with your right hand. In that case, indeed the followers of falsehood might have doubted'' This is a proof that the Quraan is from God Because although the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was illiterate in both (reading & writing), he brought the Quraan which is one his miracles,'' In that case, indeed the followers of falsehood might have doubted''è that if Muhammad (PBUH) was reading or writing then the disbelievers will be in doubt and they will say '' perhaps Muhammad learned that or read it in some where! But they didn't say that because they know that Muhammad was orphan (both father &mother), Poor and illiterate in both (reading & writing) and he was living between them. Consequently, how did Muhammad (PBUH) know what was written in the Gospel & Torah?? How did he know the stories about the previous messengers of God which has written in the Gospel & Torah??!! Surely, Allah has told him. Allah stated: '' And messengers I have mentioned to you before, and messengers I have not mentioned to you… '' + Allah has supported his last revealed book, the Holy Quraan, with many miracles that prove that this Quraan is the literal word of God, revealed by him, and it was not authored by any human being, the Quraan which was revealed 14 centuries ago, mentioned facts only recently discovered or proven by scientists, this proves without doubt that the Quraan must be the literal word of God, revealed by him to the Prophet Muhammad, and that the Quraan was not authored by Muhammad who himself had never claimed that, or by any other human being. This is also proves that Muhammad is truly a prophet sent by God. It is beyond reason that anyone 14 hundred years ago would have known these facts discovered or proven only recently with advanced equipment and sophistical scientific methods, however this isn't out topic, but for an example click here
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I didn't say only, and concentrate on what I wrote, you wrote this as a comment on That's why the Gospel like a story book because it isn't the word of God (i.e. the wording of God) but the people like Matthew, John, and Luke etc wrote what happened, events etc. so, when Christians say: the Gospel is the word of God, if they mean his wording then this is not true.
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To be continued…
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See ya =)
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Peace
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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ÚíÓì ÑÓæá Çááå​

Úáíå ÓáÇã Çááå​

 

Jatom
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Hello Jatom =), how are you doing? I hope you are fine and happy
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I will try to give responses as much as I can, so here we go =)
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Well, if this is true I can't believe every one, how can I be sure that he is truthful and sincere?!! Every body can claim, do they have proofs that they are truthful?
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Error! That means that the bible is free from errors, doesn't it?
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I believe that God support them with miracles and proofs, so that the people will believe that they are his messengers, as He supported Jesus with incredible miracles for example. I can't believe that God could be a prophet at the same time!! (I.e. he is God & prophet at the same time) èGod uses instruments (such as the prophets)
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The Quraan is the word of Allah (God) which was delivered by the angel Gabriel to Muhammad, the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, memorized the verses he received and recited them to his companions, who happened to be with him. he then ordered them to write the verses down, however, dear beloved Muhammad peace be upon him got many other proofs from God that he is his prophet and that this Quraan is from God and this isn't our issue now, what are their proofsè Paul etc? what I am saying my dear regarding the Gospels, that the original Gospel was existed with Jesus as we Muslims believe that God has revealed a Gospel to Jesus as he revealed the Torah to Moses, but I don't know what has happened to that Gospel which was with Jesus! While these four Gospels were written after his ascension they even are not a copy of that Gospel OK, O K =) put the authority or reliability of the bible aside, give me proofs from the current 4 Gospels that Jesus and the Holy spirit are Gods?
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=)
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By the way dear Jatom, I wrote a thread regarding '' the son of man'' I was wondering what does beloved Jesus peace be upon him mean by this, if you have an idea please tell me =) here is the link click
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Back to the verse but that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins
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1- Son of Man
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Numbers 23, 19: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent… beloved Jesus called himself several times, '' son of man'' * Quraan: (Behold!) when the angels said: O Mary, indeed Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word [Be! And he was! - i.e. Jesus] from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary… è we Muslims call Jesus the son of Marywho is a human herself, while in the current Gospel he is called Jesus the son of man. Myself I didn't find a verse in the Gospel where Jesus called himself the son of God! Plus you read in Luke 4.41: And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak è why? : For they knew that he was Christè is this the reason! What's the wrong if they knew that? Did Jesus expect that if he will call himself the son of God, people after his ascension will use this as a proof that he is the son of God literally? Matthew 15.7-9: … well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, … in vain they do worship me, however, the Hebrews believed that God is one; I think that the expression ''son of God'' mean to them'' Servant of God'' i.e. the one who, because of his faithful service, was close and dear to God as a son is to a father, even if Jesus has called himself '' son of God'' it is a metaphor click
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2- (NIV) Mark2.5: … Son, your sins are forgivenè he didn't say I forgave your sins! His sins were forgiven by God and God has revealed that to him, John 12.49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. John 14.24…the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. John 5.30: I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. ok let's put this aside (KJV) Mark 2. 10: But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins… well, can I say that Jesus' pray is heard from God? I.e. if Jesus asked God to forgive somebody's sins, God hear him and answer his request (supplication), or can we assume that God gave him the authority that if Jesus wants somebody's sins to be forgiven then God will answer him and accept that for the status of Jesus before God, here are some verses which support my this opinion and the previous one regarding that Jesus says what reveals to him, John 11.41-42: … Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard meè (God accepted his supplication). And I knew that thou hearest me always –Mark 9.23: Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. Luke 11.20: But if I with the finger of God cast out devils…John 5.30: I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. John 8.28-29: … then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
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Dear Jatom:
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Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you=) quoteè G: John
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Peace and love ​

I love you Jesus, let me God see him before my death, Amen ​

To be continued…
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Alright, I'm back and am reading through your responses now. I should have a reply by sometime tomorrow, or the day after.

 

Jatom
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Hello again Jatom =)
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Check up on the matter objectively, my deepest sincere best wishes, there are prophecies regarding him in the bible I will try to write a thread regarding this someday.
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There are many many of similar teachings, commandments, rites, verses etc in Islam, Christianity and Judaism; I wrote a few examples here click and here
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Ok again, you wrote
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If forgiveness of sin is a prerogative of God and God only, so what did you mean then when you said to me: Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death! …So according to the scriptures, everybody sins; the wages of sin is death???
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1-Are there specific sins which its wage is death not forgiveness, I.e. is forgiveness not acceptable if somebody committed a sin?
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2-Is there a biblical verse which says that sin's wage is death?
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3- You said: forgiveness of sin is a prerogative of God and God only, how can we reconcile this with the wage of sin which is death, not forgiveness if we committed a sin? Clarify it more, please.
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Oh man! Concentrate please! I meant,
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Mark2.5: … Son, your sins are forgivenè he didn't say I forgave your sins! His sins were forgiven by God and God has revealed that to him, John 12.49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me (by revelation) a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. John 14.24…the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's (by revelation) which sent me. John 5.30: I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear (by revelation), I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. You get it! And I already commented on if Jesus forgave man's sins (has the authority) and not the Father (God).
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I already commented on this passage and clarified them, they don’t point to Jesus' divinity at all.
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I will comment on this later, gotta go
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See ya =)
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Jatom
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Hi =)
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John 10.30: I and my Father are one. è It is a metaphor; this symbolic statement means oneness of purpose and not oneness of essence. The symbolic interpretation is emphasized in John 14.20-21: Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be inus so that the world may believe that you have sent me 22: I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
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Notes on the above verses
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[1]
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That all of them may be oneè it goes without saying that this is a metaphor.
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[2]
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[That all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you] just as è points to a likening isn't it? They couldn't be one Physically, it is a metaphor, maybe the word ‘one’ is being used figuratively to mean in agreement, If their belief of Jesus' message is in alignment with what Jesus has ordered, then, in an allegorical sense, they are ‘one’ with Jesus who himself believe in the same belief and If the message of Jesus is in alignment with what God has ordered, then, in an allegorical sense, he is ‘one’ with God.
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[3]
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May they also be inusè could this ''being'' be physically? Of course no. it is clear that God and Jesus are one here May they also be in us, if Jesus is God because he is in God and they are one, why are the disciples then not Gods, as they all are like Jesus also in God May they also be in us, if God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost form one unit of trinity, then with the disciples included they should form a God unit of fifteen!
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[4]
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I in them and you in me now is this a metaphor too? Is Jesus in them literally? If so then they are Gods because God is in Jesus literally!
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I already commented on John 8.58?
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However, Jesus was born later after Abraham at the time of King Herod! So, what did Jesus mean by "I existed before Abraham was even born!''(NLT) The concept of the pre-existence of the prophets exists in the OT, Jeremiah described himself as the following in Jeremiah 1.4-5: Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Prophet Solomon is reported in Proverbs 8.22-27: The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth. According to Job 38:4 and 21, God addressed Prophet Job as follows: Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding… Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
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So, what did Jesus mean by "I existed before Abraham was even born!'' maybe Jesus is purported to have spoken about God's knowledge of his prophets, which predates the creation of this world.
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To be continued…
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See ya
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Campbell34
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I know that this post is sent to the speez, but if you don't mind I want to know what your point exactly from quoting this verse is.
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Jatom
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Hi =)
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Dear Jatom you believe in Acts and Paul! Not me, I don't reject everything in Paul's letters because there are true things, and again his letters isn't a part of the Gospel. Acts 2.22: men of Israel, listen to this; Jesus of Nazareth, was a man approved by God to you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did through him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know è is reconciled with John 5.30: I can of mine own self do nothing Luke 11.20: But if I with the finger of God cast out devils…
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What! Come on!
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I already commented on John 8.58 in details, it doesn't appear to make Jesus out to be God at all.
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Yup, but the concept or the idea remains the same.
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Yup, but the concept or the idea should remain as it is.
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as the member Speez stated =): When you read scripture, you must understand the original message as these passages were written thousands of years ago and that language changes meaning over time. I.e. we should understand these words' meaning as it was at the time.
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Did I say something like this!!!!
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Rather,
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Different translations give a different concept of information for a particular verse then the Bible has been corrupted.
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Note: Different translations give a different concept of information for a particular verseè for example: John 20:28
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(New Living Translation) "My Lord and my God!" Thomas exclaimed.
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(Contemporary English Version) Thomas replied, "You are my Lord and my God!" click here to read this verse from (CEV)
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You understood from John 20.28 (KJV) that Jesus was called God as you stated that formerly, but I understand from (NLT) the following: Exclaim v. cry out suddenly, it is like when I see or hear about something which is stupendous or when I surprise and I didn't expect something I exclaim: My God! Or O My God! Read John 20.25: è But he said unto them, except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
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I clarified my view regarding (A) and Stay in the frame of the topicè But maybe your answers to the following questions
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This question should be forwarded to you! I think that you know my criterion or base, I a Muslim. A Muslim has no reason to reject the essence of any passage in the Bible if such a passage is confirmed by the Qur’an. For example, we read in the NT a reiteration of one of the Ten Commandments:
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“And Jesus answered him. The first of all commandments is hear, 0 Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord” (Mark 12:29) A Muslim who reads this passage can find no objection, the Qur’an confirms “Say He is Allah, the One”
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To be continued…
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Gotta go
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See ya
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Hmm...it seems like everytime I check back here you've posted something else. Are you done yet or are you still responding to all my post?

 

Jatom
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Hi =)
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Exodus 3.14-15: And Godè (the father is the speaker not Jesus the son) said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you….
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Let me explain these verses according to my understanding from it and tell me if I am wrong,
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I AM THAT I AM è is one of God's names, actually God the father has many names e.g. 'Eloah- 'Adhon, 'Adhonay- Yahweh etcè This kind of God's names is called the ''PERSONAL NAMES OF GOD'', as well I AM THAT I AM it is one of his names, I AM THAT I AM, Yahweh Tsebha'oth , Qanna' etcèThis kind of God's names is called the ''DESCRIPTIVE NAMES OF GOD''
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Please click here if you want to know more other names and you'll find his name '' I AM THAT I AM '' in number 9
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We Muslims have such thing too regarding Allah's names, actually I believe that the God of Moses and Jesus and Muhammad is one and it is he who has sent or revealed to them: Torah, Gospel and Quraan. However when I say '' I love God'' = '' I love Yahweh''= '' I love I AM THAT I AM'' but the difference between them is that I chose different names of his majesty, so accordingly let's apply "Yahweh'' on the above verses:
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And Yahweh said unto Moses, Yahweh: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Yahweh hath sent meè (refers to Moses) unto you. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Yahweh the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you….
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And again: you said:
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Firstly: (KJV) John 8:58: “before Abraham was born, I am!”
Let's read this verse from other versions
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1- (Worldwide English [New Testament])
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Jesus answered, `I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.' Read this verse from this version by clicking here;
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2- (New Living Translation)
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Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"
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Read this verse from this version by clicking here
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Consequently, ''I am'' couldn't be found in these two versions! It seems that the Gospels' translators were colored and influenced by Paul’s beliefs and teachings. Can I say that they wrote ''I am'' in some versions to reconcile it with the verse in Exodus?!
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Secondly:
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Jesus was born later after Abraham at the time of King Herod! So, what did Jesus mean by (NLT) "I existed before Abraham was even born!'' I already explained it.
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Thirdly:
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(KJV) John 8:58: “before Abraham was born, I am!”
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I am= Jesus, when I say: I am here = Stevens is here, the concept remains the same, so accordingly, can we understand this verse this way: “before Abraham was born, Jesus is!”è i.e. ''Jesus is, before Abraham was born'' is=be=existed.
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To be continued…
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Have a nice day
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See ya
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Jatom

I am still responding, I am not done yet.

YoursSincerely,
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CatStevens
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Well I hope you're done soon!

 

I haven't read the whole discussion, but I find the trinity quite clearly explained in this article:

THE TRINITY

Question. -- What is the meaning of the Trinity, of the Three Persons in One?

Answer. -- The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.

The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality. The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible. It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence.


God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror. All the creatures are evident signs of God, like the earthly beings upon all of which the rays of the sun shine. But upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits, only a portion of the light shines, through which they become visible, and are reared, and attain to the object of their existence, while the Perfect Man is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible and manifest with all its qualities and perfections. So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors -- one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit -- that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality -- that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes -- became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied -- for the Sun is one -- but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, "The Father is in the Son," meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.

This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.

It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved. *

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 116)

 

Jatom
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Hi =)
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Ops Ops Ooooops, yeah his day, so again,
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John8.56-57: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
!!!!! Jesus was saying that Abram saw his day not he (Jesus) saw Abraham? Why did the Jews say in 57:Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Can you clarify this verse to me? Or it is an addition to write the verse 58 to reconcile it with Exodus? Clarify it, please. John8.56-57:Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad
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Do you get what I mean?
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Hey! Wait a minute, when did I say that????????
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I said: if Jesus is a God è (God the son), why does he obey the Godè (God the father)? I.e. if Jesus and the father are Gods literally, why does Jesus obey the father? He is God too? I can't swallow this at all! Godè (Jesus or the Father or the Holy Spirit) don't have to obey anyone as long as they are Gods literally! Others who aren't Gods should do so. Was he Jesus obeying himself [God is 3 but they are 1, they are one, so he was obeying himself!!? Why did he do that? What was the point!]? Or he was a messenger not a God so he was obeying his God as all the creatures and prophets should obey their God? Matthew 15.7-9: … well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, … in vain they do worship me
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I am not fighting; I am not in a ring! I am discussing Jesus' divinity issue respectfully.
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Oh no, you lost me totally, “I existed before Abraham was even born!”è I mean if Jesus is meaning by this verse that his existence literally was before Abraham's birth on earth, then, Jesus was exited later after Abraham at the time of King Herod! So, what did he mean exactly? I already wrote what he meant by this saying, I think you read it, so what do you think?
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How did catstevens exist? By birth, isn't it? When I say: I existed in 1900= I was born in 1900 or you can say I existed since I was s sperm, or whatsoever =), however I explained the verse.
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Sadly, I should say thisè I have a very hard time believing that you actually believe some of the things you write
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to be continued...​

Gotta go​

Best wishes
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See ya
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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'catstevens'
i love reading your posts.
i don't know enough to go and reply on these topics,
i always read them though.
and learn from it.
thank you.

 

Jatom​

Hallo Jatom =)​

And if it couldn't be found, what does that mean? I.e. ​

(WE) Jesus answered, `I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.'​

(NLT) Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"​

I already told you what I understand from this verse, while youunderstand from(KJV) “before Abraham was born, I am!”that I am refers to the ''I AM THAT I AM'' which is in(Exodus 3:14), now there is a huge difference of the concept from the same verse, i.e. there is a huge difference between my understanding and yours!! Only one can be right! I told you my base.Plus, did you read my post # 110 in page 12 If no, I'll quote it for you,​

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Accordingly, how can we reconcile with the same verse (John 8.58) in (KJV) + (NLT or WE), let's apply Yahweh on the verse, (KJV) “before Abraham was born, I am!”è“Before Abraham was born, Yahweh is!” or '' Yahweh is Before Abraham was born,!” now (NLT) (NLT) Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!" I can't apply Yahweh here!! Because I can't find any kind of God's names! ''PERSONAL NAMES OF GOD'' or ''DESCRIPTIVE NAMES OF GOD'' so, we can reconcile with them è (KJV+NLT) in this way: I am= Jesus, when I say: I am here = Stevens is here, the concept remains the same, so accordingly, can we understand this verse this way: “before Abraham was born, Jesus is!”è i.e. ''Jesus is, before Abraham was born'' is=be=existedè why they are equalè is=be=existed because (WE) Jesus answered, `I tell you the truth. I already wasè (is the past verb of be) before Abraham was born.'​

(NLT) Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existedbefore Abraham was even born!"​

I can't find a difference in the concept of the same verse in (WE +NLT), if you didn't understand my entire response or some of it on this quote

then read it again slowly, but with concentration.​

YoursSincerely,​

CatStevens​

 

Jatom​

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Ok, what's the problem with this? They understood him wrongly, so they accused him of blasphemy, I will clarify it more, example: (S= stevens) traveled to (A) and when he came back he told (J= Jatom): hey! Jatom, I became God in that country, God made me a God there, (J): what the heck you are saying! You are blaspheming, you started stoning me and you didn't give me a chance to explain , what I meant by: I became God in that country, God made me God thereè people there loved me and because of that they served me i.e. they did whatever I say and want, whatever I want they get it to me, so I was like God, it was a metaphor or a likening, because the true God, people love him and serve him and they do whatever he wants i.e. obey his orders and commandments, now you get it? Accordingly: you were stoning me for blasphemy while in fact you misunderstood me , maybe the Jews at the time deliberately they didn't give Jesus a chance to clarify what he meant sometimes, and when Jesus couldn't clarify then the others will believe the Jews, that the Jews' Judge and view were right regarding Jesus that Jesus was truly blaspheming =(, and when you said that: Theydid this because stoning was the punishment for blasphemy (Lev. 24:16)And he that blasphemeth the nameof the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death, now let's read the following verse and please concentrate, John 10.32:Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? è (Didn't Jesus know the Law of Moses? That stoning should be for he who blasphemes thename of the Lord? That means that the stoning wasn't only for this reason, keep readingèThe Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.And I will add Deuteronomy 13. 6-9:If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathersNamely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:But thou shalt surely kill him;thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.And thou shalt stone him with stones... however, what does blasphemy mean?Oxford:blasphemy n. (pl. -ies) 1 irreverent talk or treatment of a religious or sacred thing. 2 instance of this. Longman dictionary: something you say or do that is insulting God or people's religious beliefsèJews believe that Abraham was born before Jesus existence, but Jesus said that he was exited even before Abraham was born! They didn't understand Jesus' real meaning which I already clarified it, and if you are still insistent that they stoned him because they understood that he was meaning I AM THAT I AM then:​

John 8.57: (New Living Translation) 57The people said, "You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?" Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"59At that point they picked up stones to kill him. But Jesus hid himself from them and left the Temple.​

(Worldwide English (New Testament)) The Jewish leaders said to him, `You are not fifty years old yet. How could Abraham see you?' 58Jesus answered, `I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.' 59Then they picked up stones to throw at him. But Jesus got out of their way. He left the temple and they did not know where he went. ​

So, if the reason of stoning him was because they understood him as you said: then I can't find this concept from these two versions, so I will conclude that they don't stone only for such reason, and if I will not conclude such conclusion then,​

John8.56-57:Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? ​

!!!!! Jesus was saying that Abram saw his day not he (Jesus) saw Abraham? Why did the Jews ask then in 57:Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? We find huge faults in these two verses? Jesus said that Abraham saw his day but the Jews said how you saw Abraham! Jesus didn't clarify by saying: no I didn't say that I saw Abraham I said he saw my day! But instead of saying so he Jesus directly answered them!! This is probably an addition to write the verse 58 to reconcile it with Exodus? Read and concentrate John8.56-57:Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad, and if these two verses are additions by the hand of men then it goes without saying that the verses 58 and 59 and are additions too!!!!!!!!!! If I am wrong then clarify for me, and thank you before hand.​

I will tell you something, I swear by Allah the almighty that Jesus peace be upon him will return someday, so then, go and ask him if he is God?​

John 8.32:And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.​

John 4.21-34: (Jesus) saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Fatherè[ Look he say the father and Jesus is the Son, and father and son are metaphors click 1 & 2]Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: … and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.This verse is enough to know the truth, O Dear Allah Dear Father, witness that I told him.​

Dear Jatom if I am right, then please return to the father before it is too late =( ​

To be continued…​

YoursSincerely,​

CatStevens​

 

Dear beloved members, I will write responses for each post, I am not ignoring any one, I will right them whenever I have the chance to do so, please excuse me, you know the time is limited​

YoursSincerely,​

CatStevens
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are you nearing the end of your novel yet?

 

you ignored mine..