Is Donald Trump More Valuable to Democrats IN Office?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Jimbee68, Dec 22, 2017.

  1. TrudginAcrossTheTundra

    TrudginAcrossTheTundra Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    No, I haven't. What I contend is that better teachers do so for the love of teaching, not for better pay. It may seem like a subtle difference but it's huge.

    We all remember those particularly good teachers, standouts. Those who motivated us as opposed to most who assigned us work. They were paid on the same scale as the mediocre ones and the crappy ones.

    The promise of more money does not instill a love of teaching, but perhaps the love of being employed as a teacher.

    We don't need teachers of great accomplishment. We don't need teachers with advanced degrees. We don't need teachers seeking high pay.

    What we need for teachers are people who love children, learning, and instilling a love of learning into children. Are such people worthy of good pay? Of course! But they should earn it by demonstration rather than sign up to a predetermined pay scale the same for everybody.

    More money doesn't attract better teachers. The promise of it does attract more bodies to the profession, yes, but not for the desire of being a great teacher, which is the critical component for establishing a lifelong love of learning in young minds. Good compensation for those who've demonstrated effectiveness will help with retention.


    As is your idea that I said that!

    The bottom line, imo, is not a "better education" (whatever that means, exactly) for my kids, no, but rather a curiosity, a drive, a motivation, a love for learning about all sorts of things, which will last a lifetime. Give learning a purpose, make it fun, interesting, rewarding. Armed with that, kids will largely teach themselves!

    But instead we're making school drudgery, work, obligation, grind. More allocation of society's money cannot fix that.
     
  2. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    Not by itself no. But its evidently a key element in improving education. Not enough money for it is a main problem. Too less pay and investment in education WILL cause potentially great teachers to thank for the honor.
     
  3. Noserider

    Noserider Goofy-Footed Member

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    I haven't followed the whole discussion, and, frankly, I don't have the time to backtrack, but you seem to be implying that teachers--and, I'm assuming, everyone--should do what they want for a job and not what pays the best. That it is something they should have a passion for. That's very noble. The Buddha said something similar: work like you don't need the pay.

    Problem is, we live in a capitalistic society and we do need the pay. If people can't make a living, and support themselves and family, it won't matter how much passion they have for teaching children to learn: people have to eat. If you can't take care of yourself, how can you focus on being a good teacher--a good anything? I had a job with meager pay, and I was very stressed. Even at work, I couldn't focus, because I was too preoccupied with bill collectors and what food I would give up to make my rent that month, and now I have an excellent paying job, and when I'm at work, I'm more relaxed and productive. Money can't buy happiness, but it does by security and piece of mind. I don't see why the people educating our youth shouldn't have at least that.
     
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  4. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Trump inherited a strong economy that started in 2009, not 2017. The growth of the economy has been steady for 9 years, the third longest period of growth in history. This leads to job growth as business thrives in a steady economy.
    To say Trump is solely responsible for the current state of employment is disingenuous.
     
  5. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    So let's look at this.
    Here is your statement:
    Premise #1.
    In the past teachers chose teaching because that's what they wanted to do; even though the pay was poor.
    Premise #2.
    Recently the pay has improved: leading to people entering the profession who are only in it for high pay.
    Conclusion
    3. This has led to teachers who can't teach as all they want is money and have no love of teaching.

    Disregarding the fact that you haven't proven either premise you then go on to seemingly deny that teachers can't have a love of teaching and be well paid.

    On to pay scales.
    First, I always find it interesting that money is the answer for better corporate executives, doctors, military defense, research, etc. but never for education. Why is that?
    Second, learning is work. Sometimes the work is fun, sometimes not.
    Are you advocating making teachers entertainers? Do students bear any responsibility for learning? Should we grease the way for them, making all education fun and easy?
    [​IMG]
     
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  6. TrudginAcrossTheTundra

    TrudginAcrossTheTundra Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    You'll have to define what you mean here by "can't teach" before this statement can be validated or nullified.

    But if you want to be inclusive, then yeah, there's probably some which fall into that category. Yet to go into teaching, they must've had some idea that there was some reward to teaching. Or at least that they could put up with it for the compensation promised.

    And what's the point? You went to public school, right? You remember great teachers and crappy teachers? What made them so? Did any fall under your conception of "can't teach"? Did it feel like some were there moreso by obligation than desire?

    What rules of logic are you following to imply that conclusion?

    Or did you throw "seemingly" in there to excuse your lack of rigor and deliberately misinterpret my argument it in an attempt to make it look silly to mediocre minds?

    This is the kinda shit that made me roll my eyes and bail last time. How do you have a meaningful argument with someone who doesn't focus? ... someone who may use fallacious tactics to try to confuse or discredit the person holding the opposing view? Either way, nobody learns anything, and everyone walks away with their previously preconceived notions. I don't claim to know everything, but I want my arguments to be honorable. To the best of my ability, anyway.

    Competition. Teaches don't compete against each other for business. They're on a publicly available predetermined scale of pay based on years of service, not on merit.

    If individual teachers could compete against each other for merit raises then the 'more money' approach has a better chance of improving performance.

    There is a contingency of people against the concept of competition. I'll purport that's likey because they haven't fared well when compared to others. But whatever their motivation for being against it, competition is the root of striving for excellence. It's what motivates improvement.

    The level of enjoyment one gets from work depends upon their level of passion for it, which is a result of their attitude toward it, which is mostly developed in the formative years by people who assign tasks.

    That is why I contend that a "good teacher" is one who instills a love for learning in children. As for lifetime traits, that's the most beneficial to individuals and the community.
     
  7. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    I went to public school, and parochial school for a few summers. My wife went to public school and boarded at a parochial school for a while. Some teachers were better than others, as in every profession, trade, or any other type of job. That's the point.
    I also taught in public schools for over 34 years, the same applied. I also saw a few bad teachers dismissed.
    What's your point?

    As to my conclusion, am I wrong in deducing that you don't think well paid teachers can love the teaching profession?
    How am I not focusing?
    Here's your statement again:
    I'll go through it again and please, point out my error.
    1. In ages past, people chose teaching because that's what they wanted to do.
    Okay, so what does that mean?
    Are you saying that today people don't go into teaching because they want to? I don't want to put words into your mouth so please clarify.
    2. Only in recent decades have people sought the profession for the money. Again, what does this mean? Do you think teachers, in general, worked for free in the past or just for less money? If so what does that mean in relation to raising teacher pay?Please clarify.
    3. That's given us a cadre of teachers who are no good at instilling a desire to learn in children but who just look forward to class being over so they can go out and spend some of that money they signed up for. What is the word That's addressing? I assume sentence number two. Now in sentence number two you state that That's led to teachers who aren't any good at instilling a desire to learn in children (a prime requisite for being a good teacher by your own standard, "That is why I contend that a "good teacher" is one who instills a love for learning in children..."), and further these teachers just look forward to class being over so they can spend some of their money.
    So what are you saying?

    I must be having trouble focusing...are you saying higher pay for teachers leads to poorer teachers or not?

    On to your solution for getting better teachers, which is what I assume you mean by competition.
    You're talking about merit pay. Please explain how this would work.
    If my students get more A grades than yours, I get more pay?
    If my students get higher grades than yours on standardized tests, I get more pay?
    If more of my students graduate than yours, I get more pay?
    Is that the idea?
    How about if more of my students develop a love for learning than yours, I get more pay? How are you going to measure that?

    Here are some reasons it won't work:
    In order to get more pay teachers will teach to the test. This stifles teacher creativity, limits the curriculum and the satisfaction of student curiosity, thus defeating the goal of instilling "a desire to learn."
    Standardized tests don't really measure a student's desire to learn. Standardized tests only measure learning by the student in a narrow range, they don't measure teaching effectiveness per se or the student's desire to learn. Poor standardized tests may only measure short range memorization.
    It promotes teacher and administrating "cheating". To get more good grades, pass tests, or increase graduation rates, and thus higher pay, standards are lowered, answers are leaked, weak students culled, or numbers juggled.
    Students aren't products. Students aren't widgets, machinery, or sales figures. Results of a "good" education are often not apparent for years.
    Teaching involves factors outside of the teacher's control. Students are not all of the same quality, they do not have the same motivations, needs, home life, health issues, or emotional development. Students aren't pieces of steel whereas I can order good quality steel every time to make my product, I have to take what comes down the line...by law. Pot metal or weak steel can't be refused.
    Teaching assignments are not equal. One teacher may get a class of lower performing students while another gets an advanced placement class. A class may contain non English speaking students or those with special needs while another does not.
    It promotes cronyism. Get on a principal's or a school board member's bad side and you get a low performing class, and less pay. Become a winning football coach and get a class full of academic achievers and more pay.
    It divides the teaching staff. Teachers of lower performing students may suffer moral problems if the lower performance is not due to them or their teaching methods.

    I don't want your eyes to roll around too much, so please address my concerns and point out my errors.



    [​IMG]
     
  8. TrudginAcrossTheTundra

    TrudginAcrossTheTundra Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Good stuff. It'll take me some time to get to it, but it's in the queue.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
  9. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    [​IMG]
    I thought this was pertinent.
    Time
     
  10. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    its a dangerous game. its a dangerous game to have only two political parties, or for only two of them to receive a disproportional amount of media coverage compared to others.
     

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