Intelligent people do not believe in god(s) or practise a religion

I understand. But, let's put it into context here.

What exactly is this "will" free from? Certainly not "God's Will."

YOU do not hold ALL POWER that exists. Because if you did then ANY POWER exerted in the totality of everything would come from you. Even the power to decide. Even the power of thought and thoughts themselves.

Secondly, YOU do not hold ALL KNOWLEDGE that exists. Because if you did then ANY KNOWLEDGE that existed in the totality of everything whether PAST, PRESENT, or FUTURE you would know about. Every decision BEFORE it was made.

So, following from this: there is NO exertion of power that doesn't come from "God" because all power comes from "God". Even the power to choose.

And there is NO decision that doesn't come from "God" because he has all knowledge of things EVEN BEFORE they happen.

"He" holds your power to decide and the decision itself, thus you cannot possibly EVER have freedom to decide or power to decide anything APART from "God's" power and knowledge-- apart from what "God's Will" is.

Remember not even a hair falls from your head--LEST HE WILLS IT.

In other words, no power, no knowledge, no choice could ever exist apart from "God" willing it so. IF he has those attributes you claimed of him.

So, this "Free Will" seems to be inconsistent with "God's" attributes. If there is a better explanation, I'd love to hear it.

 

No, that would be "always having power", not "having ALL power". Huge difference!

Ouch! FREE WILL is God??? You practically made my point here. If there is a "God" with those attributes then everything is within "him" and it's all one big puppet show with one creator, one director, one actor and one audience. We are his puppets.

Doesn't quite sound like a positive argument for "God", Al.

 

Well, you seem to be taking the word will meaning, that he WANTS it to happen, but what that verse means is he LET'S it happen. Not meaning he wants it to. Going back to my explanation, you didn't WANT your neighbor to be in a wreck, but you allowed it to happen because they chose to.

Just because God has that power, doesn't mean he exercises it. He has the power to kill us all, he also has the power to make us live forever, and the power to make us all 2 inches tall or to make us 20 feet tall. But that doesn't mean he exercises those powers, he just has them. You have the power to put your left sandals on you right foot, and right on left, but you also have the power NOT to. Just because you can, doesn't mean you will.

 

Actually, that is the most solid description of the relationship between God, omniscience, and free will that I have heard yet.

 

Wow, thanks! That's encouraging!

 

Not exactly. You are still misunderstanding all-powerful. You said yourself that "god" is all-powerful. You agreed that he holds ALL-POWER and that at no time does he not hold all-power. All-power constitutes ANY power exerted at any time in any form.

His "will" cannot merely be a permissive "will" because a power has been exerted -- a "choice" (or though it appears). And since "he" holds all-power, "he" exerted this power (through you, if you will) to make that choice. You, at no time, are independent of "God's" power, because NO power can be exerted without he "wills" it (not merely WANTS it).

Secondly, he KNOWS what will happen because he knows past, present and future events of any exertions of power, because no power can be exerted without it's through "Him". Including this so-called "free will" power.

Again, you are using the definition that God "holds" all-power and that a power (free will, you call it) can be exerted INDEPENDENT of "God's" control. This contradicts what you previously stated.

No power can EVER be independent of "God", because he holds all-power and nothing less. So, when you "think" you have made a "free" choice, you have only exerted power that the "Puppet Master" has exerted through you.

OR you have to agree that "God" is NOT all-powerful and that some power can be exerted independently of "God". Which is it?

 

Hmm, I think I misunderstood the phrase "holds all power"... I would have never agreed to the deffinition like that, because it goes against all of my previous theology as well. There are people who beleive that God holds all power, and that we have no free will. That way of thinking is called Calvanism, and there is also another form called Predestination which is watered-down calvinism. Named after John Calvin, by the way. I think it is a load of crap, so I am sorry for that misunderstanding of deffinitions.

But if I were a calvanist, your deffinition of God being nothing but a puppet master would be correct. But I don't beleive that God would play us like chess pieces like that, I think it is completely against the Bible and full of it.

 

By the way, I still do stick with the other deffinition, and am sorry for my misunderstanding of what that meant.

 

So, we go back to the beginning then. Define "All-Powerful".

 

I mean he hold power that is unlimited by any other force. I am really sorry, I don't mean to make it appear I am flip-flopping on the issue, I hope it isn't taken that way.

 

So, not "ALL-power", but "unlimited power"?

Now, earlier you stated that this "power" was a "power" even beyond the realm of logic. Do you still want to affirm this or do you believe that "god" can only do that which is logical?

And, if "God" does not hold and control ALL POWER, then where did you get this "power" of "free will", if not from "God"?

Also, let's examine this "free will". By this you mean that you can exert a power that is COMPLETELY FREE & INDEPENDENT of "God's" power?

On this line can you also exercise a choice that is COMPLETELY FREE & INDEPENDENT of "God's knowledge"?

AND although you say that such things in the future are not "determined" by "God" (as the Calvinists say),this would seem to contradict that "God" does KNOW the future. And if "he" KNOWS it, there can be NO deviation of what "he" knows will happen. It MUST happen the way "he" KNOWS it will.

 

WTF?? Are you drunk?

 

Yeah unlimited power, is my description of all powerful. Yes, I do beleive it goes beyond the realm of logic. Reason being, God created all of these physical limitations, and anything that happens outside of them is illogical, and anything within them is logical. So yes, I beleive it trancends logic. All logic is is something that happens within our limitations.

We are given free-will from God. That is to say, he doesn't contorl our minds.

As far as defining free-will goes, I don't know if I would use the phrasing "completely free and independant of God's power", because we still cannot choose to flap out arms and fly, because of physical limitations God has control over. But I beleive our free will does give us the power to make desicions, within what is "logical".

I do not beleive something can be done free and independant of God's knowledge. But I also don't think his knowlege means it will control what happens.

 

I would like to ask you a question Libertine, when did you become an Athiest?

 

So, the absurd questions are valid then. So, answer me this: Could "God" create square circles? Or indeed create a rock to heavy for him to lift? If an omnipotent being can do what is logically impossible, then he can not only create situations which he cannot handle but also, since he is not bound by the limits of consistency, he can handle situations which he cannot handle.

This would make your "God" a plethora of contradiction and absurdity. Are you sure you want to go along with this?

You don't think "God's" foreknowledge DICTATES what happens? Hmmm...so, we may make our own decisions, decide our own futures, with no coercion from God. If we do good things or bad things it is entirely down to us, God just sits back and watches over us?

So, if "God" gives us the power of free choice, as you said, but doesn't control it physically, wouldn't it still be under "his" control through the foreknowledge of events?

For example, If God knows all things throughout time (as he must, if he is omniscient), then he knows every action I perform, every decision I make throughout my life, before I have done them. If God knows exactly what I am going to do and how I am going to do it on 10th July, 2030, then how can I do anything other than that? **Remember** Unlike if you and I could go back in time, and observe--we do not have all-power or all-knowledge to control situations, but "God" set in motion all the events leading up to your actions, from the creation of the universe.

So, I'm afraid this "free will" / "omni-max" connection doesn't hold water.

"God" being the Creator, had prior knowledge of your actions at the time of the Creation, billions of years ago. He set the universe in motion, knowing all that would happen throughout time.

At the moment God created the universe, surely He knew all that would happen throughout it's entire history. If so, then He is directly responsible for all our actions - we have no more choice in what we do than a clockwork toy does. And some people were born just to die and go to hell. How merciful!

If not, then we are part of some huge experiment which God set in motion without the faintest idea of what would happen - he sits back and observes as people die in terrible wars and plagues, ticking off boxes on His clipboard and writing notes like some emotionless scientist.

Don't think that's true? Do a little experiment.Try it for yourself.

Right now, this minute, exert your free will.

Do something, anything at all, that you don't think God could have possibly known you were going to do.

Can you do it? Can you surprise God?

 

A series of events from 2001 to 2003 happened which changed my views. And no, these weren't tragedies or anything. But, TONS OF RESEARCH, PHILOSOPHICAL, SCIENTIFIC AND CULTURAL.

 

Libertine, you are one of the most intellegent thinkers I have ever seen type on a forum. I am so glad that someone with half a mind can come here and have a decent (oh wow, i'm drunk. i can't spell) convorsation. rayne_lyric, you are also doing a great job.

i love watching a descussion.

 

i registered just so i could get on here and reply to you two

 

Pity, such a waste of time, for such an imaginary thing don't you think?

 

Much appreciated.