Intelligent people do not believe in god(s) or practise a religion

- A passage from Arthur Young's "Reflexive Universe".

There's a difference between intelligence as an entity endowed with purpose and an entity that is 'smart'. It's probably true that smart people don't believe in Gods, but only because smart human beings probably don't exist. At least so far as intelligence is defined as 'possessing a large amount of information'. In comparison to the information possessed by god, our verbalized will is utterly pathetic. All nature converses and interacts and is intelligent.

Given the intrinsic uncertainty that exists in nature, much room is left for a first cause of a non-material will. Naturally it transcends measurement as the human brain is secondary in nature to it.

My explanation is that reality exists free of the constraints of time/space/all human reasoning and can also incorporate these things into its will. It isn't bound by a beginning or ending; existing free of time all endings and beginnings exist simultaneously. You just have to look to the nature of light to see evidence of such a reality existing. This didn't all just begin; it always was, just as time stops at the speed of light. It only appears to us to have begun, but we are stupid.

Anyway it's perfectly possible. It doesn't really matter what you or I believe.

 

Define "created". How so?

Define "God".

Let's start here.

 

Cool, interesting questions, never really been asked them in that manner. That is awesome...

Okay, first off, created means to make something out of nothing. It would be completely impossible for you or I to really "creat" anything, we can just make something. We have to make, or build a house out of materials, we can't just amke a house appear. We can't create music, we make music, because we are using sounds that already exist, we are just using them in a certain way. Etc... God created everything, because unlike us, he isn't bound to our laws. Namely, because he created those laws. We are bound by gravity, physical limitations, etc. God has none of those, he created them.

Got is an eternal being. I don't really know if "He" is really male or female, or even has a gender. I don't think he really has a gender, because he would have no use for it. I beleive God is all powerful and is bound by no limitations. I beleive he loves his creation, and created everything in a way that is sustains itself well with differant systems.
I beleive that we are created in the image of God, at least as far as many things go, such as our emotions. I beleive God has emotions and other person-like charactoristics, just like we do. He chose to bestow those upon us, because unlike how many people think, our feelings are not a limitation, but a freedom we have.

So I think God, without limitations, created this world, by simply speaking it into existance.

 

Ok, so the definition of created for "God" means that "he" didn't have any materials, but created all that exists (matter, energy, etc.?)

Is this correct?

Secondly, I take it by saying the "God" is eternal, you mean timeless--unbound by the constraints of "time". You also say that "God" isn't bound by physical limitations, but what of, say "logical" limitations?

By "all powerful" I take it to mean that he holds power which is unlimited by any other force or That he holds all the power that IS power in existence. Which is it and is it both?

You also believe that this being has humanistic qualities such as emotions--anger, sadness, grief, joy, etc. Is this correct?

I am asking these questions because I want to understand you correctly and not misrepresent your view.

 

First question, Yes. About the time thing, yeah, timeless. I also don't think he is bound by logical limitations, but he did creat a very logical world for us, where everything happens for a reason, and isn't senseless. Thus, we have science. Hmmm... About the all-powerful part, I don't know... Maybe both, or the second one... I am not sure... Yes, I beleive God has humanistic qualities.

Was the last sentance supposed to be a sort of hidden message to me? If so I got it. You are saying that I shouldn't come down on Evolution and the Big Bang theory without knowing your views on it, which I agree. I THOUGHT I knew about it, but I also learned it from a Christian resource (I was homeschooled) so please share with me some about it, or your view on it anyway.

 

This sounds like my science lessons at baptist school ....they also taught me that man have one less rib than women. The strictly religious is no place to go for science education.

If american's keep propagating this kind of misinformation we are going to become a nation of blabbering idiots. And a poor one at that, since the technological advances that have made us a world power rely completely on the sciences. Turn people away from science and you slowly turn us into a third world nation.

No offense to you, rayne. I see from your above post that you were home-schooled (by someone devoutly religious, or at least wildly under-educated in science, no doubt).

 

Ok, I gather you think "God" is both timeless and unbound by logical limitations, right?

This would most likely mean that "God" (who is eternal) is "all-powerful" always and at NO TIME would "He" be less than "all-powerful". Does this sound correct?

Ok. Maybe answering the questions above will give me a better understanding of what you mean by "all powerful".

Now, you also believe that this "all powerful" being is "timeless". Would you say that he is also "All-Knowing"? "All-Good"? "All-Present" (everywhere, all the time) too?

Ok, I think I understand that you believe "God" has emotions. We'll discuss this in detail a little later.

Well, I have my theories and I will share them with you. But, first I just want to get the meat of your belief system where we can better communicate. I am the skeptic and you are the believer, so I think it is fair that I understand what you really believe before I make any pronouncements.

 

Yeah man, you pretty much have it pegged. I think he is both timeless and unbound by limitations, and he is at no time less than all powerful. Yes, I beleive he is all knowing, all good and all present. So yeah man, you are deffinately understanding my beleif of God. Interesting that you asked me all those questions, no one else ever has, really.

 

By the way man, you always have the COOLEST signature pictures!

 

Ah, ok. I understand.

Well, let me ask you If "God" is not bound by logical limitations than could he created a rock too heavy for him to lift? Or could he pop himself in and out of existence?

Good.

Suppose this "God" is all of these things you've defined. I have a few more questions concerning these qualities:

Suppose we take the issue of "evil" in the world. You say "God" is both all-powerful and all-good. So, these two traits would surely mean that "God" would be both able to stop evil and surely opposed to evil because he is all-powerful and all-good. Yet, we know that somehow evil exists.
Is he able, but not willing? If so, this eliminates all-goodness.
Is he willing, but unable? If so, this eliminates all-powerful.
Is he both able and willing? If so, where does "evil" come from?

 

Much thanks!

 

I don't expect you to "buy into" anything. I am simply asking you to question what you know and/or believe. You seem to be very unhappily attached to a mythological representation that you didn't create, that you don't believe in, and that you cannot prove even exists outside of what you "know." You assume that everyone believes in your mythological construct, erroneously.

I don't know anything about your "universal sky daddy." I neither disbelieve nor believe in it the way you do and I am not quite sure why you are so vehemently nihilistic toward it if you really don't believe in it yourself. Maybe if you just let go of it for a while and consider this . . . God is not defined by what you (and I) know. Reality exists, consciousness is real, and God, or the divine, or that which is sacred (or meaningful, or cognatively expansive, or . . .), in whichever form you actually allow yourself to be conscious of it, is real, regardless of whether or not you actually allow yourself to be conscious of it.

You can argue that there is nothing outside of your logical constructs, but that seems far more logically erroneous than a belief in a meaningful universe that (between you and I, at least) IS conscious.

What I AM saying is, don't buy into fairy tales, especially when they are bitter, negative, nihilistic. But don't deny reality either, and don't assume you know everything, not yet anyway.

Peace and Love

 

Ok. Where's your beef? It sounds like you are defining "God" in some subjective, non-sky daddy version.

Fine. We have no argument, you and I.

You don't believe in sky daddy or the fairytales. So....

There's nothing more to discuss.

 

Actually I have heard and wandered about the Rock thing... Really a weird thing sort of like the "if a tree falls in the woods..." or "What is the sound of one hand clapping" things. Never heard the existance thing. I have always heard questions like that answered by "Why would he want to?" but I never thought it was a satisfying answer... But I really don't know how to answer it...

As far as the good/evil thing goes, I think he is both able and willing. However, he also created us with a free-will and so whether we commit evil acts or not is up to us, and often time it results in evil we can't control. For example, when adam and eve where in the Garden of Eden, and they decided to commit the first disobediant act against God performed by people, it made the whole world suffer. So if Adam and eve didn't sin, we wouldn't have the natural disasters and stuff, or even death today. They are all a result of evil that entered the world. But God is able and willing to do something about it, he just won't take away our free-will to do it, we have to be willing to let him take it away, which we aren't.

 

"Why would he want to" is a cop-out. A non-answer. I am glad that doesn't satisfy you. You are obviously a thinking person not swayed by statements such as "You shouldn't question some things". Good for you!

First I'll question "free will". Ok, you stated earlier that "God" was both all-powerful, all-present, and all-knowing. Following from that you further stated that you believed in the second definition of "all powerful" which stated "holds all power that exists".

Since "God" is everywhere (all present) then there is nowhere where "he" isn't. In other words, "he" is in every corner of the universe at the same time, every little nook and cranny--every little atom--every little subatomic particle.

If this is the case, then "God" is in your mind as well and knows your thoughts. And since "he" also KNOWS everything (past, present & future), "he" knows your thoughts in advance.

And since "he" KNOWS what you will decide, it doesn't matter if you THINK you changed your mind--"he" would KNOW that. In other words, what "God" KNOWS is going to happen-- IS going to happen. Period. What "God" KNOWS will happen--MUST happen the way he KNOWS it's going to happen.

Now, as for the "all-power". Since "Free Will" is a "power" that "God" is given man (as you claim), then it is a power that exists. You said earlier here that "God" is in control of all the power that exists. Thus, he knows and is in control of everything--including YOUR WILL.

Even the Bible says, "not a hair falls from your head lest HE WILLS it."

Thus, "God's" attributes are completely incompatible with "free will". It cannot be "free" of "God's" control because "he" is in control of everything, all the time and you admitted that there is NO TIME that he does not control all the power.

These attributes would also prevent the "humanistic-emotional" qualities of "God" from being geniune. If "God" knows what will happen and controls it (and wills it) then how could "he" express anger? sadness? happiness? Or any emotion over events that "he" knew would happen--events that he willed to happen?

Humanistic emotions are basic reactions to events that take place usually without our prior knowledge and well beyond our control.

 

Missing that logical leap. How does it follow that God's foreknowledge eliminates our ability to choose freely? Could you provide a deductive argument?

God knows everything that can possibly happen as well as what actually *will* happen.
It is not the case that something is compelled to happen by God's knowledge.
Free will simply means that when we are presented with a choice, we are not compelled to make one choice over the other.
That God withholds his power and does not compel our choice does not interfere or contradict that He knows what we will choose.
That God is absolutely certain as to what will and will not happen is irrelevant to free will because it has no causal or coercive ability to prevent or alter our ability to choose.
For example, I can know with absolute certainty that 2+2=4 or that the Law of Noncontradiction must be true. My absolute certainty has absolutely no causal power over these truths.
Therefore, to say that absolute certain knowledge has a coercive or causal effect is false.
If absolute and certain knowledge has no causal or coercive effect has no causal or coercive effect, then God's foreknowledge has no coercive effect on our ability to chose (our free will).

That isn't to say that God cannot override our free will (as you say Lib, He has all power). However, it simply doesn't follow that His foreknowledge is at all at odds with our free will.

He has power to control, yes, but that doesn't mean He continually excercises it in the sense you describe.

 

First of all, Al. This is a debate between rayne_lyric and myself. I have neither the patience, energy or will to make this into a royal rumble.

But, I will answer you questions since you seem afraid that rayne_lyric is a thinking person and will finally escape the clutches of dogma.

IF GOD KNOWS IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN. IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN. PERIOD.
IF GOD IS ALL-POWERFUL, HE IS IN CONTROL OF ALL POWER.

THUS, THERE IS NO "FREE WILL" AND NO WAY TO POSSIBLE BE OUTSIDE THE REALM OF GOD'S POWER OR KNOWLEDGE.

These apologetic gymnastics aren't going to work with me.

We are not speaking of a human being who "assumes" and has limited power, but of a so-called being with ALL POWER and ALL KNOWLEDGE. There is no squirming out of these facts.

No amount of twisting and turning can fix that.

I have limited power and limited knowledge, thus my mind can be changed and things can happen beyond my control. This "god" with these attributes is different.

There is nothing out of his knowledge or control. NOTHING.

Even you "free will" is "his will".

IF HE IS ALL-KNOWING-- HE KNOWS, GET IT? HE DOESN'T ASSUME OR PREDICT-- HE KNOWS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AND HOW.

As far as "he doesn't exercise it"...that's A COP-OUT. There is no way that "God" can NOT exercise it. ANY FORM OF EXERCISE OF IT IS A POWER AND HE CONTROLS ALL POWER--ALL THE TIME.

 

My apologies for butting in. Seriously.

Thank God I got here in time!!! I'd hate to have someone escape from church dogma!

Not sure I agree with you there, Lib. All powerful might be better defined as "never lacking power." God always has power to do what power is capable of. He also is sovereign meaning he can chose to use this power whenever he deems necessary.

Huh? Nothing can happen that is beyond the scope of God's control. Well, not exactly. There is nothing that power can do that God is incapable of doing. He always has sufficient power.

And God knows everything that does, can, or will happen, yes.

What apologetic gymnastics? I just asked for the logical path you took to overcome the counterargument that foreknowledge has no causal element.

Okay. I fail to see the issue here. There is nothing of which he is unaware and nothing over which he cannot exercise authority.

How about this:

Free will is God, despite knowing what our choices will be, makes the sovereign decision to withhold control from our moral choices.

This is completely consistent with the meaning of "free will" and with God's foreknowledge and omnipotence.

Part of control include the ability to not do something. If God has complete control over all power in the universe, then He has the ability to refrain from using it. If He can't, then He is not omnipotent (and your argument is rendered moot) or He can (and your argument is rendered moot).

 

Thanks, yeah, I do find it a trifle bit unsettleing and unsatisfying and agree with you that we SHOULD question things. If we have a faith we are afraid of questioning, that is a bad sign.

Okay, my view of free-will is something like this. Say you say someone cut your neighbors brake cables. You know what happened, you know how you could stop it, and you let your naeighbor know "I saw someone cut your brake cables, you might not wanna drive today." They replied with "I don't beleive you. My brakes are fine." and they go on their way. Well, they will make it to the first stop sign, and then they won't stop. They hit some wall or a house or another car or something.

So you knew that someone cut their cables. You knew what would happen if they tried to drive the car. You knew that they would crash. Now you had the ability to stop them (You could have restrained them, or sliced their tires or something like that) but then they wouldn't have the free-will to not listen to you. You gave them freedom and a warning. They chose not to listen to you. But you KNEW the outcome. I know that is not a PERFECT example, but that is sort of my view on free-will.

I hope that sort of clears it up a little...

 

I sure hope that doesn't mean I am running down your patience.