Intelligent Design? Myth or Fact

To go along with this; it's interesting to note that the Bible says it's impossible for God to lie.

 

While your arguement is still interesting, Jesus did state that he was God incarnate. By calling himself Lord several times throughout scripture he implied that. Only God called himself Lord in the old testament, because Lord is the translation chosen by christian writers in the bible to replace the name of God. To say that Jesus did not imply this is completly unfounded and to believe that he did not implies that you do not wish to accept what the bible itself states. Now if you wanted to follow your beliefs I suppose you could say well I don't really believe the bible should be taken all that literally. Thats up to you.

I state only what the bible itself says about his omniscience. I don't even believe in the Christian God. I know that he is simply another way for people to explain the unexplainable. Yahweh was created by the Jews (who were originally polytheistic) to give them something to hold on to and trust no matter where they were (seeing as how they became nomadic after the Exodus).

God does not have the right to toy with our lives. Nor to confuse us, or condemn us. If god was truly what he is said to be in the bible he would do none of these things. God toyed with my life by condemning me to Adams fate. If you take the bible literally that is. He lied to us when he said I am never changing, I was the same yesterday, today, and forever. God changes several times throughout the biblical record. The most prominent of these being his loss of tyrannical, warmongering, hate infused, ways for the loving father, always there, understanding, forgiving god of the new testament. The bible itself is irrefutable evidence to the fallacy of God.

 

Could you tell us where Jesus calls himself "Lord", and what word is he using? Adonai? It seems to me that the references to Jesus as divine and Lord are coming from followers. By the time we get to John and all the "I Am" statements, it's clear that claims are being made that Jesus is God, co-existent with the Father from all eternity. Some Bible scholars think this "high Cristology" developed rather late, as early Christians increasingly came to think of their founder as divine.

 

First off he himself said in Mark 5:19- And he suffered him not, but saith unto him, "Go to thy house unto thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and how he had mercy on thee."(ERV)

Then in John 13:13 he said: "Ye call me, Master, and, Lord: and ye say well; for so I am."(ERV)

Also He claimed to be God by declaring in Mark 2:1-12 -
When He had come back to Capernaum several days afterward, it was heard that He was at home. 2 And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even near the door; and He was speaking the word to them. 3 And they came, bringing to Him a paralytic, carried by four men. 4 Being unable to get to Him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above Him; and when they had dug an opening, they let down the pallet on which the paralytic was lying. 5 And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6 But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” 8 Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? 9 “Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’? 10 “But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, 11 “I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home.” 12 And he got up and immediately picked up the pallet and went out in the sight of everyone, so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.”
Only the Lord God Jehovah could purify and forgive a being of all his sins. By saying this Jesus was claiming himself to be God. This is taught in ancient jewish tradition, and seeing as how Judaism is the building block of christianity it can't be ignored. (NAS)

The same was stated in Luke 7:48- And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. (ERV)

All of these are claims made by Jesus according to the words of his disciples that he was the one true God.

I was born and raised Christian, then when I turned 18 I came to find out I was jewish by heritage so I studied the translations of the bible from the ancient texts and jewish customs.

IH

 

http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Je...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235963900&sr=1-1

Review

"Adds color to the interpretation of faith." -- -- Martin Marty, author of A Cry of Absence

"Crossan's Jesus isn't gentle, meek, or mild. Crossan's Jesus is an illiterate peasant, both healer and social revolutionary--a Jesus without the Lord's Prayer, the Last Supper, the Virgin Birth, or the Sermon on the Mount." -- Associated Press

"Elegant . . .masterful. There is nothing like [Crossan's book] for thoroughness, readability, fairness, and clarity." -- -- Harvey Cox, author of The Secular City andMany Mansions

"Every couple of years someone tries to prove that Jesus was a Zealot who carried a dagger, or that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and the French monarchy are their descendents, or that Jesus was a member of a mushroom-munching cult. Crossan in is neither of those camps. It may not be an orthodox portrait, but he's not doing it for sensation or headlines. He is a very honest literary critic and he has worked very quietly for a lot of years. What he's doing adds color to the interpretation of faith rather than being a displacement of it." -- Martin Marty, University of Chicago

"Lively and idiosyncratic in the great tradition of the historical Jesus genre begun by Schweitzer." -- -- The Christian Science Monitor

"Lively and idiosyncratic in the great tradition of the historical Jesus genre begun by Schweitzer.... Crossan leads the reader on a meandering bumpy ride through the back streets of Judea as he searches for a rabble-rousing peasant named Jesus and his ragtag followers." -- Christian Science Monitor

"The most important scholarly book about Jesus in decades." -- -- Marcus Borg, author of Jesus: A New Vision

"[Crossan] argues that Jesus. . .became a wisdom teacher using Zen-like aphorisms and puzzling parables to challenge social conventions." -- -- The New York Times

"[Crossan] argues that Jesus...became a wisdom teacher using Zen-like aphorisms and puzzling parables to challenge social conventions." -- New York Times


"Adds color to the interpretation of faith." -- Martin Marty, author of A Cry of Absence



"The most important scholarly book about Jesus in decades." -- Marcus Borg, author of Jesus: A New Vision

 

When you actually come up with the scripture where Jesus says: I am God, then you’ll be credible, till then perhaps you should stop telling people Jesus is Almighty God.

As for the word Lord:
The Greek and Hebrew words rendered “lord” (or such related terms as “sir,” “owner,” “master”) are used with reference to Yahweh God (Eze 3:11), Jesus Christ (Mt 7:21), one of the elders seen by John in vision (Re 7:13, 14), angels (Ge 19:1, 2; Da 12:8), men (1Sa 25:24; Ac 16:16, 19, 30), and false deities (1Co 8:5). Often the designation “lord” denotes one who has ownership or authority and power over persons or things. (Ge 24:9; 42:30; 45:8, 9; 1Ki 16:24; Lu 19:33; Ac 25:26; Eph 6:5) This title was applied by Sarah to her husband (Ge 18:12), by children to their fathers (Ge 31:35; Mt 21:28, 29), and by a younger brother to his older brother (Ge 32:5, 6). It appears as a title of respect addressed to prominent persons, public officials, prophets, and kings. (Ge 23:6; 42:10; Nu 11:28; 2Sa 1:10; 2Ki 8:10-12; Mt 27:63) When used in addressing strangers, “lord,” or “sir,” served as a title of courtesy.—Joh 12:21; 20:15; Ac 16:30.

It seems the term Lord is not as exclusive as you seems to imply, perhaps Jesus wasn’t saying he was God after all.

 

Of course you know the Bible never uses the word omniscience, so saying that you only state what the Bible says about omniscience is a little misleading don’t you think.

 

Couldn't this be interpreted as simply claiming that he had cast out the demons by the power of the Lord (i.e., Yahweh)?

Here it is hard in an English translation to tell what he's referring to. (My version says, "ye call me Teacher and Lord", but I guess same difference. But he is making the point to his followers that they consider him their leader, and yet he has just washed their feet.

Couldn't this, once again, just mean he was forgiving sins and healing through the power of Yahweh, not that he was God? Admittedly, the claim to be forgiving sins was a challenge to the Temple and priests, and could have been considered blasphemous, but there is no direct claim of Godship.


IH[/quote]

 

I’m truly sorry that have been lied to about God and the Bible. But that fact is neither God's or the Bible’s fault.

 

[/QUOTE]

I would like to point out that the way jesus states these sentences he implies that you should thank him as Lord. If he was giving due credit to a being besides himself I would think he would have said "Go to thy house unto thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done through me for thee, and how he had mercy on thee."

 

The bible hasn't lied just to me. If you were to read and think about the things it says you too would realize that what it says is very misleading. Perhaps if you were to go to the bible and instead of ask what has it to teach me today, ask what is wrong with what it says. That is how I first uncovered the things that it says and was able to understand how they are wrong. As a human it is our nature to question. Why not question God?

 

"Thou art God May you always drink deep May you never be thirsty.
With water of life we grow closer.
Our nest is yours.
I give you the water of life.

:cheers2:


Aquafraternally yours,

WHM arty:

 

I am so glad that hydrogen and oxygen fell in love

:grouphug:

 

Thanx, I needed that!

 

I never said that the Bible lied to you, I said others had lied to you about what the Bible says. But you are the one that believes those lies. Now because the Bible doesn't agree with those lies you say the Bible is misleading and wrong, interesting.

If I were to read and think about the things it says I too would realize that what it says is very misleading?

My friend, I was reading and thinking about the Bible a good 40 years before you were born. Perhaps it is you that needs to read and think about the things it says, because so far almost nothing you have said about it is true. To me it just sounds like you are parroting what you’ve been taught about the Bible instead of actually finding out what it really says for yourself.

 

My father is a pastor. I do not parrot what I am taught. And you tell me how any thing of what I have said has been wrong... First and foremost God does change from the time of the old testament to the new. Completly. Second if Christian views do not support the claims of the bible then perhaps your groups views should be changed so as not to be misleading. By saying that Jesus is God you are either taking the bible out of context or simply misreading it yourself, or if you'd rather go the other way and say jesus is not god then you are tearing down everything the diciples tried to build. And also for the record before you start insulting me and what I have to say maybe you should look around and actually read the things I have said.

I came here to have an intelligent discussion not a discussion where someone speaks rashly and changes things around to fit their likes and dislikes.

IH

 

OWB, would it be prying to ask you, are you a Jehovah's Witness? Your Arianism is unusual among fundamentalists, and I was just wondering.

 

That would explain alot.

 

Perhaps it is time to state my views and understandings of the biblical text more clearly for those of you who choose to say I don't know what I am talking about.

My first fact
God Changes from Old to New.
In the old testament Yahweh was shown to be a judgemental, violent, envious, narcisistic being. These facts are shown through

Narcisism:
Genesis 1:26- And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Judgemental:
Genesis 18: 25- "Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?"

Psalm 75:7 declares, "But God is the Judge; He puts down one, and exalts another.'

There are also several accounts of God judging other nations and condemning them based on his whims and will throughout the old testament. Some examples of this are his judgement of the nations opposing Israel on the way to the "promised land" accounts of which can be found in most of latter Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Dueteronomy.
His judgement of those who had sinned by interbreeding with non jews, which I believe is found in Leviticus or Dueteronomy and I know there is an account in Nehemiah. And first and foremost his judgements of Adam, Eve, and Cain in Genesis

Violence: Look anywhere that God made war upon another people and you will find depictions of his violence and even his cruelty. One of the stories that have proved troubling to students of Holy Scripture over the years is the account of Uzzah, who stretched forth his hand to steady the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark, we recall, was being carried by ox cart in order to be installed at David's projected new shrine at Jerusalem. Some obstacle, however, perhaps a bump in the road, caused the oxen to lurch, nearly upsetting the cart and putting the Ark in danger. The Bible describes the scene: "Uzzah put out his hand to the Ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. Then the anger of the Lord was aroused against Uzzah, and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the Ark of God" (2 Samuel 6:6-7).

Likewise there are myrid scriptural references to God being an envious and jealous being in the Old Testament. I fully expect those of you who are willing to learn and take the time to seek these scriptures for yourselves to further your enlightenment .

God changes completly when the N.T. roles around. He is no longer judgmental, harsh, unrelenting, or unforgiving. He has as some would say "realized his folly" and begins to seek fellowship with the beings he has spent so much time prior judging and harming. The primary if not only real example of this change is the coming of Christ. As such all of these things combine to show the fault in the verses
Malachi 3:6 - "For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."
James 1:17 - "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
Numbers 23:19 - “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent.”
1 Samuel 15:29 - "And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent."
All of these scriptural references attest to God being unchanging. And yet as previously pointed out He changes entirely between O.T. and N.T.

God is racial:

All throughout the books of the bible God shows his love first and foremost of the Jews. In the O.T. his only goal was to make an eternal life with the Jews. The gentiles at that time were not even in his thoughts. As previously stated He even killed Jews and their families who interbred. Now a common argument is that God simply killed them because they married ungodly folk. But if you do your reading and search through Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Nehemiah, you will note that more commonly it is simply stated that God didn't want them to interbreed. Not because those they were with were ungodly. Also there is
Acts: 17:26-And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

God specifically states here that all men and nations have their set boundaries and times.

This is all for now. I'll give each of you who are willing to enlighten yourselves plenty of study as it is. If you have any arguments after you have looked through each of these verses and books that I have referenced please feel free to state them. Politley. Also I suggest that you not only read the verses I quoted but the text surrounding them to ensure that I am taking nothing out of context. Happy studying!

IH

 

The boundary God is an anti-dote to the direct racial distrust God.:cheers2: