In defense of....an Otterly opinion.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by cynical_otter, May 22, 2004.

  1. cynical_otter

    cynical_otter Bleh!

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    If it had been my mother.

    those men would be dead.

    She would have castrated them..shoved their peni into their mouths and slowly Nick Berged them.then shit,piss,and spit on their corpses.

    so it's probably a good thing..she isnt in that prison or any prison for that matter.She'd do it in an american prison too.


    I agree with Razm wholeheartedly.

    People are outraged by these photos....but not only barely blinked an eye at the beheading of a civvie....they actually argue that it was not real.

    While I read some very convincing arguments in support of that theory...I'm sticking with the scientific data...the coroners ruled his death from beheading..they placed his death on the day the video was filmed.They even named the kind of tool used to remove the head.

    I also remember certain forum members who shall remain nameless arguing that what happened to Jessica Lynch was not even bad or miniscule compared to what happened to other female soldiers or female civilians.


    But I guess the rape of non-american women is only bad.the rest of us american whores just have to suck it up.


    This whole thing sucks and people need to realize that in this situation...there is no clear cut right and wrong...good and bad...black and white.


    It's simply human. and until we stop being human(thus vengeful and mean) things like this will continue to happen.
     
  2. Maggie Sugar

    Maggie Sugar Senior Member

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    There is never an excuse for torture. NEVER. You don't know that these particular men ever hurt a womyn and even if they did, they still don't deserve this type of humiliation.

    Torture is soul destroying for those who perform it and those who endorse it. There is never an excuse, no matter what the crime to hurt and injure and humiliate anyone. I don't care what a few out of context passages from the Koran say, You can find just as bad in the Bible. Or the laws of many countries. Toture is never OK.

    Oh. and BTW, "heroine" Jessica Lynch was NEVER raped in Iraq. Her injuries were totally inconsistant with rape and supported the fact that rape would have been physically impossible in her condition. SHE even claims she wasn''t raped. Stop beleiving lies!!!!
     
  3. mynameiskc

    mynameiskc way to go noogs!

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    yes, torture is disgusting and foul, but i have some forgiveness in my heart for those placed in a position of being able to take their rage out on other people. what a horrific temptation, one that not all would be able to pass up.
     
  4. cynical_otter

    cynical_otter Bleh!

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    how can a woman be physically impossible to rape?

    you can rape her in a coma....you can rape her if she's dead.

    all you have to do is spread her legs or rear entry.


    so unless her pussy got blown off....rape is always a possibility.


    as for injuries consistant with rape....this a dangerous fallacy that allows rape victims to be denied help.ALOT of rape victims experiance no bruising or tears. they have no injuries at all.....except for mental and psychological injuries.

    Maggie..I'm surprised you dont know this.


    some women go into a state of shock or pass out when their attacker strikes. this can cause the body to relax...sometimes a woman's body will even sexually respond to the rape.Not by her choice but sometimes our bodies betray us at the worst times.

    No all rape victims have the tell tale signs of tearing,bruising,trauma.


    some women can be raped...experiance no physical injury and live life in denial that it happened.


    some say Jessica Lynch was raped...some say she wasnt.

    she was also debriefed before EVER being able to talk to the US press. they could have told her not to say she was raped...we dont know.


    But I have heard plenty of stories that say she was possibly raped along with stories of other female soldiers who were raped.



    but Maggie...all you did was prove my initial point of my last post.


    whatever happened to Jessica Lynch was nothing and we ought to just forget it or deny it....cause she's just another American bitch who was in a place she shouldnt have been in the first place.:rolleyes:

    but the guys on leashes??? innocent victims.:rolleyes:
     
  5. LaughinWillow

    LaughinWillow Member

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    Whether Jessica Lynch was raped or not (she SAYS she wasn't, and there is certainly no reason whatsoever for the american government to tell her to lie, when if she were raped, this would bolster THEIR case) is irrelevant. Do all AMERICAN men deserve to be tortured and sexually assaulted because I was raped by one of them? Christ - at least 25% of girls are raped or molested in the US before age 18 - you certainly don't need the KORAN to tell you to abuse women - American men do very well at it every day without it!

    This entire thread is just ludicrous. There are men of ALL religions who molest children, rape women (and men), torture women, beat their wives and children - and a WHOLE LOTTA THEM live in the United States, which has one of the highest rates of violence against women and children in the western world. I'd LOVE to know why Muslim men "deserve" to be tortured, but American men don't.

    By the way, while the pictures posted here are indeed pornography, there have been multiple claims by Iraqi women who report being raped by American and British soldiers. In fact, there is British video of women being raped and also small boys reportedly being sodomized - but this video, as far as I know, has been kept out of the media, due to its horrific content.
     
  6. razm

    razm Member

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    OK Otter, if it was my mother, they would die a slow, painful, humiliating death. But the women we are talking about are not my mother, these are women who think that they are finding there way to a better place after death, they weren’t born in the US with the freedom to choose religion. Change doesn’t start with the torture of others in retaliation.



    [​IMG]


    Maggie,



    You go ahead and show me the passages from the bible Maggie, you’ll need to be specific. As far as out of context, go look up the passages I posted.

    Who said she was a hero? Hell she said herself that her gun malfunctioned! (hey lets elect Kerry so our soldiers can’t defend themselves!)

    "I'm not about to take credit for something I didn't do," she said.

    "I did not shoot - not a round, nothing. I went down praying to my knees - that's the last thing I remember.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3251731.stm - Of course if you go to the link, you’ll find that medical examinations (which pfc. Lynch acknowledged) showed that she had been raped. And of course yeah, what Otter said.

    LaughinWillow,

    Other religions DON’T excuse the MISTREATMENT of women. It’s in the Koran can’t you see, women are property to muslim men, get it!?
     
  7. cynical_otter

    cynical_otter Bleh!

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    Willow,as usual,clearly doesnt get what I'm saying.


    Interesting how KC...pretty much nailed it with her post about the psychology of it all.


    Let Willow answer this if she wants to compare and contrast culture.

    When was the last time an american man in america publically killed his wife,as in stabbed her,shot her,or beat her to death because of something she did wrong(in his eyes) and got away with it..as in aquitted by a jury or judge?

    In these cultures and countries of the Middle East,North Africa,and Malaysia...women are brutally murdered EVERYDAY in public by their husbands,brothers,fathers....and no jury or judge EVER convicts them. as a matter-of-fact...charges are almost NEVER pressed.


    When was the last time an American woman in America was stoned because she had a baby outside of marriage? And if such a thing happened here in the USA..was the man punished?

    When was the last time in America that an American woman who was raped was legally put to death for dishonor?


    Ok Willow....now answer this....an American woman born into a culture that says women are equal..that rape and murder is wrong..where women can be in the friggin military next to the men......get's into a room with a bunch of guys who come from a culture that everyone knows treats women like second-class citizens at best..on average condones beating women to a pulp and wont let them vote....

    how do you think,logically,a woman is gonna regard these men?on a psychological level? add onto the stress of war?

    A tough military broad who doesnt take shit from anyone(except a superior officer)?


    she's gonna have these dudes saddled up and jumping through hoops of fire reciting the "I am woman..hear me roar" poem.


    and I can think of atleast 50 other women who'd do the same thing.


    as I said in my very first post...the men certainly had no excuse for what they did....maybe the stress of war and orders from above.....but the female soldiers have so much more affecting their psyche.



    Oh and Willow....we'll talk about a ludicrous thread after your "Let's invade Israel" thread stops running it's course.


    then we'll compare....k?

    thanks.
     
  8. LaughinWillow

    LaughinWillow Member

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    Otter, your original post here does NOT indicate that you are simply discussing the psychology of why these women soldiers might have abused Iraqis. You basically were just saying "more power to 'em" and acting as if they were simply getting "revenge" for all the women these men clearly must have abused in their lives as Iraqi men. There are all sorts of reasons these women might have chosen to participate in this abuse. As American females, it's far more likely that they were victims of rape or abuse in their OWN country and were taking revenge on these men for THAT.

    I suppose it's possible that these women felt they were getting "revenge" for the Muslim women "abused" by these men. There are several problems with this "logic," however. First, reports show that between 70 and 80% of these men were known to be civilians, not soldiers who "might have raped Jennifer Lynch" (or anyone else). Second, like most Americans, you are lumping all Muslim cultures together in a pile where women are abused, set on fire, publicly hanged, forced to wear Burquas, etc. This is not the case, and was certainly not the historical case for Iraq. Brutal as Iraq's government was to ALL its citizens, male and female, Iraqi women WERE equal under the law, were permitted and encouraged to make up a large percentage of the workforce, did not have to follow strict Muslim dress, were permitted to divorce, were not publicly hanged for adultery, etc. Muslim extremists were common targets of the Saddam regime, and were regularly put to DEATH, not given dominion over women's lives. Women in Iraq have been CURRENTLY complaining about their rights being slowly stripped from them under the "america-friendly regime" that has been installed in Iraq, however.

    THIS is why your post is ludicrous - because it doesn't even consider the differences between Muslim cultures. Jordan is certainly not Afghanistan, and Iraq is not Saudi Arabia. Each of these countries has its own laws, based on the Koran to differing levels.

    In any case, there is NO EXCUSE for torture. There are all kinds of reasons a soldier might give for why he or she would like to torture someone. Some of those reasons might even be *valid* ones. An Iraqi man who NEVER harmed his wife, gave her total freedom, respected her as an equal, etc. might LOVE to torture an American soldier who raped his wife. It doesn't make it legal, moral, correct, or defensible as policy. Torture is NEVER ACCEPTABLE.

    And I'll say this - the women in THIS country who make up the MILLIONS who are raped, abused daily, and molested probably don't really CARE a whole lot that the "law" doesn't recognize men's "right" to do this - the FACT is that it occurs DESPITE the law. As such, I see no difference between me going out and torturing American men and what these soldiers did, if you are really going to continue justifying it.
     
  9. Mari

    Mari Member

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    Ummm....WHO appointed that woman God, judge, and jury???

    Regardless of what she might have THOUGHT those men did to anybody she had NO RIGHT to treat them in this manner at all.

    SUPPOSE it was HER on the end of that leash. HOW would you feel then?
     
  10. LaughinWillow

    LaughinWillow Member

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    And as far as the bible, there is PLENTY of woman-hate in there:

    Exodus

    20:17 Insulting Tenth Commandment, considering a wife to be property
    21:7-11 Unfair rules for female servants, may be sex slaves
    22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"
    38:8 Women may not enter tabernacle they must support

    Leviticus

    12:1-14 Women who have sons are unclean 7 days
    12:4-7 Women who have daughters are unclean 14 days
    15:19-23 Menstrual periods are unclean
    19:20-22 If master has sex with engaged woman, she shall be scourged

    Numbers

    1:2 Poll of people only includes men
    5:13-31 Barbaric adulteress test
    31:16-35 "virgins" listed as war booty

    Deuteronomy

    21:11-14 Rape manual
    22:5 Abomination for women to wear men's garments, vice-versa
    22:13-21 Barbaric virgin test
    22:23-24 woman raped in city, she & her rapist both stoned to death
    22:28-29 woman must marry her rapist
    24:1 Men can divorce woman for "uncleanness," not vice-versa
    25:11-12 If woman touches foe's penis, her hand shall be cut off

    Judges

    11:30-40 Jephthah's nameless daughter sacrificed
    19:22-29 Concubine sacrificed to rapist crowd to save man

    I Kings 11:1-4 King Solomon had 700 wives & 300 concubines

    Job 14:1-4 "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one . . ."

    Proverbs

    7:9-27 Evil women seduce men, send them to hell

    11:22 One of numerous Proverbial putdowns

    Isaiah 3:16-17 God scourges, rapes haughty women

    Ezekiel 16:45 One of numerous obscene denunciations

    Luke 2:22 Mary is unclean after birth of Jesus

    I Corinthians

    11:3-15 Man is head of women; only man in God's image
    14:34-35 Women keep in silence, learn only from husbands

    Ephesians 5:22-33 "Wives, submit . . ."

    Colossians 3:18 More "wives submit"

    I Timothy

    2:9 Women adorn selves in shamefacedness
    2:11-14 Women learn in silence in all subjection; Eve was sinful, Adam blameless

    "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man," (I Tim. 2:12)

    "Wives, be subject to your husbands as to the Lord," (Eph. 5:22)

    "Women should be silent in the churches." (I Cor. 14:34).

    Judges 21:10-24
    ...destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan...

    Numbers 31:7-18Moses..."Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves...

    Deuteronomy 20:10-14)...you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

    Need more?
     
  11. Mari

    Mari Member

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    Yup, and women are NOT supposed to attend church when in these situations. In the Orthodox church women are not allowed to go to church for 40 days after they give birth.
     
  12. cynical_otter

    cynical_otter Bleh!

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    stupid ass


    I love how Willow assumes no one will look up the vague scripture she posts.


    Deuteronomy 21 11-14 the alleged rape guide...says this,,


    If you see a beautiful woman among the captives and you have your heart set on her,you may marry her.Bring her into your home.She must shave her head and clip her nails and no longer wear the clothes she was wearing when you captured her,Then she may live in your home and mourn the loss of her father and mother for one month,After that you may sleep with her.Then you will become husband and wife.

    But if it happens that you are no longer pleased with her,let her go where-ever she wants.You must never sell her or mistreat her as she a slave,since you have already lain with her.


    the rape stoning is wrong.

    it says if a woman has sex with a man in the city..both must be stoned to purge the sin from the city.

    if the girl is a virgin...both must also die.


    it specifically says that rape is a mortal sin.

    if you rape a woman then only the man must die because it is not the girl's fault or no one could hear her screams.

    If the man rapes an unengaged virgin...he must pay a fee and marry the girl because no one else will want her.


    I love having my Bible even though I'm athiest.
     
  13. LaughinWillow

    LaughinWillow Member

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    Right otter, you've educated us all. There is nothing in the bible that demeans women or rates them second to men. We're all wrong. *rolling eyes*

    And I'M the dumbass. Phew.
     
  14. Heat

    Heat Smile, it's contagious! :) Lifetime Supporter

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    Well if this does not beat all...........I after reading the comments of an otter got an education on how to be a human who can justify the torture of another human being......without any thought as to the individual and instead with only a thought to some in a race who might dishonour women..........


    God if I shared your view I would be ashamed to be a woman.

    The torture of any human is not acceptable or we all lose something so integral to being a human with the ability to differentiate right from wrong........then we are left with your view and no damn hope for humans.

    I instead will judge actions based upon the one and what is acceptable as far as the one.

    This whole incident was not acceptable nor more than it would be if the other side had of perpetrated it.

    Otter your post and premise is beyond belief and it is not a matter of liberation it is a matter of total disregard for human dignity.

    I am so thankful that you are not the majority.
     
  15. Cosmic Butterfly

    Cosmic Butterfly Member

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    Otter, I still think that you dont know very much about Arab countries. Im thinking that you are just spitting out alot of propaganda. They are not all the same, and alot of countries a great. America is just as bad as Arab countries when it comes to crimes committed against children and woman. Everyday, right now, somewhere in America a man is raping a woman. A husband his beating his wife and kids. Someone is probably being murdered, and child is being kidnapped.
     
  16. Cosmic Butterfly

    Cosmic Butterfly Member

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    Razm! Read the damn Koran and stop swallowing rumors. Bible, Torah, and Koran all feel basically the same about women. Its the stupid male minded religions that screwing up the world!
     
  17. mynameiskc

    mynameiskc way to go noogs!

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    johnny2mad usually has a spectacular rant about the koran in the p&r pages. he does engage in ranting about the torah and bible, too, just not as often. he's got some interesting materials listed there, though much is probably lost since the re-vamping.
     
  18. razm

    razm Member

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    If I had the energy, and more importantly the time I'd look them up, but that's not right. I'm not sure what joke of a site you got that from but you might as well hold your hand under a bull's ass.

    I've read a good bit of the Koran.
     
  19. LaughinWillow

    LaughinWillow Member

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    Are you JOKING? I've read the entire bible a couple times, and I assure you, this is all quite accurate. What do you THINK the Old Testament is about? *sheesh*
     
  20. sadeyedlady

    sadeyedlady Member

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    "these guys were born and live in a culture that treats women like shit.they stone women for things like showing their face in public, they sell girl children off as sex slaves to Asian countries and rich old Middle Eastern men."

    You don't know the individual actions of any of these men.

    Some of these soldiers may not have done anything misogynistic in their lives. They happened to be born in a misogynistic culture, but that does not make them guilty of any specific action.
     

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