Imagine if the "patriots" of today were alive in 1776 ?

I'm sure forging your own cannon was quite the experience..

 

Srgreene

I can give you the thread

Race, class and above all power.

It was part of a discussion on fairness in society I was arguing that such things as slavery and not allowing women to vote was unfair and many people had worked to change society to be fairer by ending slavery and giving women the right to vote.

Wrat’s argument seemed to be that he he doesn’t care about fairness just if things advantage himself saying that “I am pleased when things favor me yes MOST people are sometimes its at the expense of another person”

Even at the the expense of other people.

So in relation to slavery he indicated that if it was advantageous to himself and his family he’d be happy with it “If 200 some odd years ago my FAMILY & LIVLIHOOD depended on slavery yes it would serve MY interests , My Family and interests will always come first”

And he has said since then in several places that he stands by what he said and has never denied that he would still be happy with slavery (even if it was around today) if it was advantageous to himself.

 

Thank you for the link.

I did not see wrat make that claim in a somewhat cursory look at the thread. What page was it on?

If you are taking his comment that you quoted ("“I am pleased when things favor me yes MOST people are sometimes its at the expense of another person”) as your evidence that he supported slavery, I think you are going way beyond wrat's claim.

As for what any of us might have done in the antebellum South ... well I think it did and does take exceptional moral conscience to put your sense of justice wholly above one's one interest. Some citizens of the Confederate states, driven by religious scruples, were able to do that (Quakers of the Carolinas were notable for that), but they were a distinct minority. Both Thomas Jefferson and George Washington detested the idea of slavery, and basically worked to undermine it, but they failed to apply those standards to their own personal situations. Jefferson died essentially bankrupt, or at least insolvent, as it was.

Permit me to say I abhor the notion that one person can control the life of another. That's why I am libertarian in outlook.

Finally, allow me to note that slavery does exist today. Libya, Mauritania .... they have open air markets for the slave trade (officially, Mauritania outlawed it, I believe, the institution continues .... parts of Libya are a no-man's land). . But of course, Black Lives Matters doesn't care about them, and the Jesse Jacksons and Louis Farrakans of the world are much more interested in slavery in the USA over 150 years ago than they are in slavery today.

 

Srgreene

Remember this was in a discussion over fairness in society I feel that societies should strive to be fair, wrat’s argument was that ‘life was not fair’ and all that mattered seemed to be to gain advantage even if that meant through the exploitation of others.

Remember he was given the opportunity to say that if exploitation existed today and he was gaining from it that he’d be opposed to it.

I mean would you support slavery today? How much exploitation would you accept, I mean there are many forms of exploitation that exit that don’t go as far as direct slavery.

It’s an old argument in the main most people on the left and progressive wings of politics favour fairer and more equal societies while those on the right and more Social Darwinists wings are not that bothered.

Why do you say that?

I’m for fairer societies everywhere, be it the US, Libya, Mauritania or the UK, why would I not be?

People can support many positions, they may not know of something but that does not mean they wouldn’t care about them if they did. I’ve contributed to many campaigns against exploration and hardship around the world, I know of many others that have also.

I mean the other thing I brought up in the discussion with wrat was women’s rights there are many places in the world where these are still curtailed and I’ve supported campaigns and demonstrate against that over the years.

But what kind of libertarian are you, I’ve meet left leaning libertarians that would want fairer and more equal societies and I’ve meet right wing libertarians that would support very unfair unequal and exploitative societies.

There are many types of libertarians

 

Well where do you see evidence of BLM spokespeople inveighing against slavery today?

But I will give you good example of what I'm referring to: Farrakhan's Soulless Denial of Slavery in Sudan Almost Overlooked by Fox Soul | The Stream

Louis Farrakhan has consistently denied the enslavement of Africans by Moslems today, just has he denied the horrendous genocide of Christians in Sudan.

But it gets worse. Dr. Charles Jacobs accompanied various people to Sudan, including Al Sharpton, who was quite distressed by the suffering he witnessed. He promised people that when he got home after seeing the suffering of people in southern Sudan (now South Sudan) he would speak out on the subject. He was planning to, but Farrakhan got wind of his intentions. Now it just so happens that Farrakhan was an important source of funds for Sharpton. Sharpton abandoned his plan, and abandoned his (alleged) fellow Christians in Sudan:

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/08/how_al_sharpton_abandoned_africas_slaves_.html


Please learn about this horrendous history, and the hideous silence about the genocide and enslavement of African Christians today. But you do not hear BLM leaders- or Democrat leaders- discuss this.

Nor do you hear from the likes of BLM leaders of the awful carnage in urban black communities today. They are only interested in the murder of a black person when the perpetrator is Caucasian- preferably a cop. BLM- the movement- is a political movement masquerading as a rights movement, and it stinks to high heaven.

 

srgreene

I’m unsure what your argument is?

Are you somehow claiming that the BLM shouldn’t be supported because its not doing enough for modern slavery and black poverty?

OR

That you support BLM but think it should do more to tackle modern slavery and black poverty?

But the movement was born out of the fact that large numbers of black people are been killed by police officers many of them been white that seems to indicate a certain amount of racism in US society and the police force.

I think most people know about the problems that US urban areas have and black on black crime, I’ve brought it up myself in numerous threads but that is not what BLM was set up to tackle.

 

BLM is racist it should be ALM( All Life Matters)

 

Lion

But not everyone is facing the same problems

BLM was born out of the fact that large numbers of black people are been killed by police officers many of them been white that seems to indicate a certain amount of racism in US society and the police force.

If everyone was been shot by police at the same rate irrespective of their skin colour then yes it would be ALM but thats not the case so its BLM as in black lives matter just as much as others do

 

Large numbers well that's a stretch..

 

Is it - what is your evidence

 

I do not see it as necessarily an EITHER OR question, although I did not mention poverty at all, so I don't know why you brought that up.

I don't think that white officers are any more likely to kill Negroes in the USA than are black officers. At least Joseph Cesario made that claim last year in popular discussion about his paper in PNAS that he later retracted because he believed its findings were mis-interpreted (I have a hard copy of his statement that appears to have been taken down from the MSU web site, but his retraction is in Ref 1). But even in his retraction, the authors state this:

Relative to the proportion of Black civilians in the U.S., Black Americans are shot more than we would expect.However, relative to various proxies for the proportion of Black civilians who commit violent crime, Black Americans are not shot more than we would expect.

In less academic language, that means police shoot black people more than white (or Asian, I think) Americans because blacks engage in violent crime more than Caucasians or Asians. Their retraction did not address his claim that white officers are no more likely to kill Negroes in the USA than are black officers, but if it were a matter of racism, I would expect there to be a difference in how frequently black and white officers kill blacks.

I think that the indifference that black leaders in America have shown about the lives of black people elsewhere in the world, as well as their lack of interest in combatting the violent culture that pervades of much black America today (in which black Americans are the primary victims) is indicative of the fact that their primary concern is to gain political power, for ends I consider pernicious, as opposed to a genuine concern for the murder of black people.

1. https://5315b3c7-4fd2-421c-be7a-cba...d/b44013_086d65c1284b4734b7fdce4532edf02a.pdf

 

what is yours, I live in the ghetto none of my black friends have been killed by police, ever..

But I have lost them to other blacks..

1female killed witness intimidating ..
1male killed home invasion..




black lives don't matter when they proportionately kill more of their own in their own community than any police force or white supremacy ever could..




And when they was bothered by the police they knew they deserved it .
I have a black Godchild in prison for another 3 years.
Jumping out of cars pulling toy guns on people..
He's lucky he isn't dead from the people he jumped out on..
And when he was finally caught they didn't shoot him..

maybe police are much more reserved than you think they are ..

the anniversary of my brother a white man being killed by the police is in a week .

He was a bad dude..
Some bad dudes are destined to die one way or another..

Maybe not be a bad dude you won't have any problems..


He was pushed off the road by the police, by order of this pig in the meme..
Was he invading captivity, what do I know I wasn't there..


Guess who the 2nd person was..

 

that picture sketch
that is the face of evil

 

He should consider himself fortunate that some white racist POS trigger-happy cop didn’t blow him away.

 

From his home his youthful eyes had looked upon the war in his own country with distrust. It must be some sort of a play affair. He had long despaired of witnessing a Greeklike struggle. Such would would be no more, he said. Men were better, or more timid. Secular and religious education had effaced the throat-grappling instinct, or else firm finance held in check the passions.

THE RED BADGE OF COURAGE
STEPHEN CRANE

 

Benjamin Franklin was a loyalist who supported the Stamp Act

 

Greene –O

You arguments seem the same and are ones I’ve meet many times before unusually in gun issue threads, it’s basically about doing nothing, just carrying on with the status quo.

That nothing can be done to tackle crime (except maybe to get tough, harder policing harder sentencing). It appeals to a certain mentality that sees intimidation and the threat (or use) of violence as a legitimate societal tool.

It is not about tackling the causes of crime just the symptoms.

Both of you seem to accept the situation of violent, often murderous street crime rather than going - this is terrible what can be done to lessen or stop it.

This has amazed me time after time in such debates such people would reject the most obvious ways of tackling the situation in favour of just letting it continue.

The best ways to tackle such murderous crime is by tackling inequality and in relation to the US the ease of access to guns.

And as I’ve explained elsewhere in the US for historical reason there is an ethnical connection to inequality, so while BLM is a start but not the panacea, what is needed is a holistic approach that looks at the impact the present social system and how it can be changed.

 

srgreene

This is your main argument

So what are the end that you see as pernicious and why?

 

Excellent choice of words. Fake news media at that.

 

Jen

Sorry can you explain what you are talking about

What media are you talking about?

Where is this supposed media leading?

What isn’t disproportionate?