I'm going to wear the hijab

Yes, some people seem to think that being open-minded means making your mind like a wastebasket into which anyone can throw their ideas.

People in this thread have been quick to condemn any anti-Islam statements as arrogant, ignorant, and hateful, but no one has pointed out or criticized the most arrogant, ignorant, and hateful statement made so far in this thread which is "There is no God except ALLAH; Muhammad is Messenger of ALLAH."

In one breath this statement denies the validity of every religion that has ever existed and will exist other than Islam, and rejects every prophet except Muhammad. It is insulting to practitioners of every religion, agnostics, and atheists. It is ignorant because it claims to know the unknowable (that any god exists at all, let alone a particular god), it is arrogant because it dismisses religions past present and future without even knowing the claims of those religions, and it is hateful because it essentially tells everyone who is not a Muslim that their religion is pointless. Essentially a giant "go pound salt" statement. Nothing tolerant about that.

I can believe that many Muslims are tolerant, but their doctrines are not. If you want to be tolerant, then it's time to abandon this intolerant faith (or purge it of intolerant doctrines such as this one).

 

:iagree:

 

Oh, no no... He won't reopen it. I don't remember the exact verse, but Quran says Allah won't lead infidels, specially the ones who were Muslims in the past, but later changed their way.

1. I think you should. They say each of Quran's verses has an external (superficial) concept and an internal one.

2. What do you mean by banishing? They're your experiences which you can never forget. They make you remember who you were, and the fact that Allah led you.

 

Challenge the thoughts when they occur so as put that part of my life behind me. Try to walk away and forget what I once was so that it won't corrupt me again.

I won't lie or try to prented to know things that I don't. All I know is Allah (S.W.T) is the most merciful and oft-forgiving. If you wish I can ask my friend about this sitation. (Perhaps she knows more)

False idol worship is at the heart of Islam. We attach no other partners to Allah. To be muslim is to believe that there is only Allah(S.W.T) and no other.

But we do acknowledge all people of the Book. Because they too believe in Allah(S.W.T). That means Christians, the Children of Israel (which includes including Jews, Samaritans and the Karaites ) and the Sabians. God will not foresake them either.

Now you're free to believe in whatever set of gods you desire. But I don't want to participate and that's certainly my right. Because for me, as it is with all muslims, jews and christians, there is only one true God.

We belive in each and every single prophet that the Jews and Christians believe in. From moses to Jesus. (Peace be upon them) What Mohamed (peace be upon him) is... Is the last prophet and there will not be any others. That is why he is held is such high estime because in layman's terms. He delivered to us our last and final messages and warnings from God . There will be not be any more.

We also believe study the torah (jewish book), the book of psalms the gospel of christ (christian). It's not just the Qur'an.. these are our holy books too. Like the jews we don't believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) was the son of God.

 

"You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides him there is no other" (Deuteronomy 4:35).
"There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God" (1 Samuel 2:2).
"How great you are, O Sovereign Lord! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears" (2 Samuel 7:22).
"So that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other" (1 Kings 8:60).
"I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me" (Isaiah 45:5).
"For this is what the Lord says — he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited — he says: `I am the Lord, and there is no other’ " (Isaiah 45:18).
"Declare what is to be, present it — let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other" (Isaiah 45:21-22).
"Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me" (Isaiah 46:9).

http://www.gci.org/God/onlyone

[SIZE=+1]Christ the only Saviour[/SIZE]
Christ reveals himself throughout his earthly life as the Saviour sent by the Father for the salvation of the world. His very name, "Jesus", expresses this mission. It actually means: "God saves".It is a name he was given as a result of heavenly instruction: both Mary and Joseph (Lk 1:31; Mt 1:21) receive the order to call him by this name. In the message to Joseph the meaning of the name is explained: "for he will save his people from their sins".2. Christ defines his saving mission as a service whose highest expression will be the sacrifice of his life for mankind: "For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mk 10:45; Mt 20:28). These words, spoken to counter the disciples’ tendency to seek the first place in the kingdom, are primarily meant to awaken in them a new mentality, which conforms more closely to that of the Teacher.In the Book of Daniel, the figure described as "one like a son of man" is shown surrounded by the glory due to leaders who receive universal veneration: "all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him" (Dn 7:14). Jesus contrasts this figure with the Son of man who puts himself at the service of all. As a divine person, he would be fully entitled to be served. But in saying he had "come to serve", he shows a disturbing aspect of God’s behaviour: although he has the right and the power to make himself served, he puts himself "at the service" of his creatures.Jesus is the only Saviour and MediatorJesus expresses this desire to serve in an eloquent and moving way at the Last Supper when he washes his disciples’ feet: a symbolic act which will be impressed as a rule of life on their memory for ever: "You also ought to wash one another’s feet" (Jn 13:14).3. In saying that the Son of man came to give his life as a ransom for many, Jesus is referring to the prophecy of the suffering Servant who "makes himself an offering for sin" (Is 53:10). It is a personal sacrifice, very different from the animal sacrifices used ancient worship. It is a life given "as a ransom for many", that is, for the immense multitude of humanity, for "all".Jesus thus appears as the universal Saviour: all human beings, according to the divine plan, are ransomed, freed and saved by him. Paul says: "Since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they arejustified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Rom 3:24). Salvation is a gift that can be received by each one to the extent of his free consent and voluntary co-operation.4. As universal Saviour, Christ is the only Saviour. Peter affirms this clearly: "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).At the same time, he is also proclaimed the only mediator between God and men, as the First Letter to Timothy affirms: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tm 2: 56). As the God-man, Jesus is the perfect mediator who unites men with God, obtaining for them the goods of salvation and divine life. This is a unique mediation which excludes any competing or parallel mediation, although it is compatible with participated forms of mediation (cf. Redemptoris inissio, n. 5).Consequently, any other autonomous sources or ways of salvation cannot be admitted apart from Christ. Thus in the great religions, which the Church considers with respect and esteem in the way indicated by the Second Vatican Council, Christians recognize the presence of saving elements, which nevertheless operate in dependence on the influence of Christ’s grace. Therefore these religions can contribute, by virtue of the mysterious action of the Holy Spirit who "blows where he wills" (Jn 3:8), to helping men on their way to eternal happiness, but this role is also the fruit of Christ’s redemptive activity. Thus with regard to other religions, Christ the Saviour is also mysteriously at work. In this task he unites to himself the Church, which is in a way the "sacrament of communion with God and of unity among all men" (Lumen gentium, n. 1).Christ alone can satisfy all our desires5. I would like to conclude with a wonderful passage from the Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, by St Louis de Montfort, which proclaims the Christological faith of the Church: "Jesus Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end of everything.... He is the only teacher from whom we must learn; the only Lord on whom we should depend; the only Head to whom we should be united and the only model that we should imitate. He is the only Physician that can heal us; the only Shepherd that can feed us; the only Way that can lead us; the only Truth that we can believe; the only Life that can animate us. He alone is everything to us and he alone can satisfy all our desires.... Each one of the faithful who is not united to him is like a branch broken from the stem of the vine. It falls and withers and is fit only to be burnt. If we live in Jesus and Jesus lives in us, we need not fear damnation. Neither angels in heaven nor men on earth, nor devils in hell, no creature whatever can harm us, for no creature can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. Through him, with him and in him we can do all things and render all honour and glory to the Father in the unity of the Holy Spirit; we can become perfect and be for our neighbour a fragrance of eternal life" (n. 61).

http://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01101998_p-18_en.html

 

Allāh , IPA: [ʔalˤˈlˤɑːh] is the Arabic word for God

 

Don't worry. Remembering what you once were won't corrupt you!

No, Merci very much. I'm good.

 

What's your point ?
Judaism, Christianity and Islam all worship the same God and trace their origins back to Abraham.
The main dividing difference between them is in their positions concerning who Jesus was/is.

Jews consider him an embarrassment and blasphemer of that God.
Muslims consider him as another prophet of that same God.
Christians consider him to be that God incarnate.

But they all three are talking about the same monotheistic God.

Saying there is no other God is kinda the definition of monotheistic isn't it?

 

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all worship the same God

You can also find some rather complimentary words about Jesus being the one and only - too.

so all this:

'"In one breath this statement denies the validity of every religion that has ever existed and will exist other than Islam, and rejects every prophet except Muhammad. It is insulting to practitioners of every religion, agnostics, and atheists. It is ignorant because it claims to know the unknowable (that any god exists at all, let alone a particular god), it is arrogant because it dismisses religions past present and future without even knowing the claims of those religions, and it is hateful because it essentially tells everyone who is not a Muslim that their religion is pointless. Essentially a giant "go pound salt" statement. Nothing tolerant about that.

I can believe that many Muslims are tolerant, but their doctrines are not. If you want to be tolerant, then it's time to abandon this intolerant faith (or purge it of intolerant doctrines such as this one).'

Is a little pot/kettle/black - imho.

Basically, all religions seem to think they are better than sliced bread and the last word etc...

 

In order for the pot to call the kettle black it must be true that the accuser is guilty of what they accuse others of. I don't know what makes you think I am a Christian or a Jew, but I am neither. I have no religion. And I do level those same charges against other religions. This is a thread about Islam, and a discussion about Islam, so that's what I was discussing. Perhaps next time you should ask me what I believe, rather than assuming that I am a pot calling the kettle black.

 

I just don't want to find myself back in the darkness that I was once in.
But just the same I hope you don't mind if I ask for a second opinion.

 

Yeah. A bit lazy of me. Half arsed. Sorry.

Well then, imo, these sentences are redundant:
'In one breath this statement denies the validity of every religion that has ever existed and will exist other than Islam, and rejects every prophet except Muhammad.'
'It is ignorant because it claims to know the unknowable.'

I'm not really sure why it would insult: 'agnostics, and atheists.'

'it is arrogant because it dismisses religions past present and future without even knowing the claims of those religions.'
Well, boo, bleeding, hoo. I think you were running out of things to say here.

It's also a redundant, if you: level those same charges against other religions.' - What's the point of singling one religion out?
Would you have encompassed all religions if I didn't say anything? I doubt it.

You can't really level the same charges against other religions - because it kinda cancels each charge out, doesn't it?

Fair enough. Sorry.

 

The two statements that you quoted there are two different statements and therefor, by definition, not redundant.

Because it flatly claims that they are wrong with no consideration to their arguments. I'm an atheist, and I am not offended by that statement, but I left open the possibility that others might be.

No I said exactly what I meant to say, and I still mean it. Perhaps you misunderstood the point of my post (I was trying to criticize those in this thread that claimed that any anti-Islam statement is 'intolerant' or 'hateful' while at the same time not realizing that pro-Islam statements can be intolerant and hateful). At any rate I'm sure there are some believers of other religions who would agree.

Since to be redundant is to be repetitive, and I only said it once, then again by definition it is not redundant. Did you mean irrelevant? Also I don't know what makes you think you know me well enough to assume that you can predict what statements I would or would not make, but you clearly don't know me that well. The reason I did not mention other religions, as I already stated, is that this is obviously a thread about Islam, in a sub-forum about Islam, and everyone else here is discussing Islam, so I made a post about Islam. Now you've forced me to be redundant. I am no fan of Christianity or Judaism, and I have criticized them in other threads in other sub-forums in the past and recently, without any prodding from you.

No the charge can apply to any religion which is guilty of that charge. If every religion turned out to be intolerant that would not mean that there would be no point in criticizing one or all of them for it. Just for good measure, I officially level a charge of intolerance against any religion that claims to know that it is correct and all other religions are wrong.

 

As an atheist are you not flatly refuting the existence of something a religious person believes? Are you not claiming they are wrong? Isn't that hypocritical of you?

Perhaps.

Perhaps it means something different where you live. To me it means:
Adjective
No longer needed or useful; superfluous.
(of words or data) Able to be omitted without loss of meaning or function.
Synonyms
superfluous - unnecessary - needless - excessive - spare

No. But, I guess that would have been good enough, too.

Well my point was that you could level the same charges against Christianity and Judaism. So what is the point of singling out one, as if you are only talking about one religion and not them all?

Obviously it hit a chord with atleast 5 posters. It seemed like you were just singling out Islam to me. I can appreciate what you are trying to say now, although - I don't really see the point in saying it.

For the record, I'm an atheist, too.

 

Odon, an atheist of the general meaning can very much flatly claim that the god of the three monotheisms is complete bullshit.

I think you know as much.... (though I admit, I (somehow) don't know your religious orientation.

 

Doesn't this make sense: 'As an atheist are you not flatly refuting the existence of something a religious person believes? Are you not claiming they are wrong? Isn't that hypocritical of you?'

 

In general Islam has to be one of my least favorite religions; they are very sexist, and the whole, "Allah is the ONLY WAY, all else are wrong" thing. It does seem to be a very sexist, bigoting religion; and for this reason for years I abhorred Islam and still do; but every Muslim I've met is so sweet and gentle, so I just assume it's a cultural "you say tomatos, I say tomatos" kind of thing and I've let them be. The Christian bible is violent and full of rape and incest too, and I tend to personally meet more outspoken, rude bigots from Christianity than I do from Islam. Islam seems to have more sexism, murder, rape and all that gory stuff, but it seems like the jerks come from Christianity.
So my stance is, "it's probably BS but they seem to get pleasure from it and they (the individuals) aren't hurting anyone".

 

Resistance isn't futile, allow me to play Devil's Advocate and ask, how to you reconcile the following?
The Qur'an:

Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176). In Islam, sexism is mathematically established.

Qur'an (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." Muslim apologists offer creative explanations to explain why Allah felt that a man's testimony in court should be valued twice as highly as a woman's, but studies consistently show that women are actually less likely to tell lies than men, meaning that they would make more reliable witnesses.

Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

Qur'an (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" Men are to rub dirt on their hands if there is no water to purify them following casual contact with a woman (such as shaking hands).

Qur'an (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye. (To be fair, men are told to do the same thing in the prior verse).

Qur'an (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..." A man has dominion over his wives' bodies as he does his land. This verse is overtly sexual. There is some dispute as to whether it is referring to the practice of anal intercourse, which it has been used historically to justify. If this is what Muhammad meant, however, then it would appear to contradict what he said in Muslim (8:3365).

Qur'an (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" Inequality by numbers.

Qur'an (53:27) - "Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names." Angels are sublime beings, and would therefore be male.

Qur'an (4:24) and Qur'an (33:50) - A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage. Note that the verse distinguishes wives from captives (those whom they right hand possesses).


From the Hadith:



Bukhari (6:301) - "[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"



Bukhari (6:301) - continued - "[Muhammad said] 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her religion.'" Allah has made women deficient in the practice of their religion as well, by giving them menstrual cycles.



Bukhari (2:28) - Women comprise the majority of Hell's occupants. This is important because the only women in heaven ever mentioned by Muhammad are the virgins who serve the sexual desires of men. (A weak Hadith, Kanz al-`ummal, 22:10, even suggests that 99% of women go to Hell).



Bukhari (62:81) - "The Prophet said: "'The stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (women's) private parts (i.e. the stipulations of the marriage contract).'" In other words, the most important thing that a woman brings to a marriage is between her legs.



Bukhari (62:58) - A woman presents herself in marriage to Muhammad, but he does not find her attractive, so he "donates" her on the spot to another man.



Muslim (4:1039) - "A'isha said [to Muhammad]: 'You have made us equal to the dogs and the asses'" These are the words of Muhammad's favorite wife, complaining of the role assigned to women under Islam.



Abu Dawud (2:704) - "...the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you prays without a sutrah, a dog, an ass, a pig, a Jew, a Magian, and a woman cut off his prayer, but it will suffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stone's throw."



Abu Dawud (2155) - Women are compared to slaves and camels with regard to the "evil" in them.



Ishaq 593 - "As for Ali, he said, 'Women are plentiful, and you can easily change one for another.'" Ali was raised as a son by Muhammad. He was also the 4th caliph. This comment was made in Muhammad's presence without a word of rebuke from him.



Ishaq 593 - "From the captives of Hunayn, Allah's Messenger gave [his son-in-law] Ali a slave girl called Baytab and he gave [future Caliph] Uthman a slave girl called Zaynab and [future Caliph] Umar another." - Even in this world, Muhammad treated women like party favors, handing out slave girls to his cronies for sex.



Al-Tirmidhi 3272 - "When Allah's Messenger was asked which woman was best he replied, 'The one who pleases (her husband) when he looks at her, obeys him when he gives a command, and does not go against his wishes regarding her person or property by doing anything of which he disapproves'."



Tabari VIII:117 - The fate of more captured farm wives, whom the Muslims distributed amongst themselves as sex slaves: "Dihyah had asked the Messenger for Safiyah when the Prophet chose her for himself... the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims."



Tabari IX:137 - "Allah granted Rayhana of the Qurayza to Muhammad as booty."



Ishaq 969 - "Men were to lay injunctions on women lightly, for they were prisoners of men and had no control over their persons." - This same text also justifies beating women for flirting.



Tabari Vol 9, Number 1754 - "Treat women well, for they are [like] domestic animals with you and do not possess anything for themselves." From Muhammad's 'Farewell Sermon'.

10. A husband has sex with his wife, as a plow goes into a field.

The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223 says:

Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like . . . . (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004)

9. Husbands are a degree above their wives.

The Quran in Sura 2:228 says:

. . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 165)

8. A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female.

The Quran in Sura 4:11 says:

The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311)

7. A woman’s testimony counts half of a man’s testimony.

The Quran in Sura 2:282 says:

And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 205).

6. A wife may remarry her ex—husband if and only if she marries another man and then this second man divorces her.

The Quran in Sura 2:230 says:

And if the husband divorces his wife (for the third time), she shall not remain his lawful wife after this (absolute) divorce, unless she marries another husband and the second husband divorces her. [In that case] there is no harm if they [the first couple] remarry . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 165)

5. Slave—girls are sexual property for their male owners.

The Quran in Sura 4:24 says:

And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands [as prisoners of war] . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 319).

4. A man may be polygamous with up to four wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:3 says:

And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 305)

3. A husband may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:129 says:

It is not within your power to be perfectly equitable in your treatment with all your wives, even if you wish to be so; therefore, [in order to satisfy the dictates of Divine Law] do not lean towards one wife so as to leave the other in a state of suspense. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 381)

2. Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (quite apart from whether they actually are highhanded).

The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:

4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added)

1. Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls.

The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says:

65:1 O Prophet, when you [and the believers] divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added)

 

Well, Christianity does have the old and new testament, plus all the scriptures they have omitted over centuries. I don't think Islam is old enough to have had all the nasty bits taken out.

 

It's not hypocritical, because it's scientific fact.

When you prove something enough, for all practical purposes, it's considered fact, like gravity. Christianity, judaism, and islam all dramatically contradict scientific fact, and none of them allow serious revision to address this issue.

Nobody has EVER succeeded in providing ANY empirical proof (or even evidence) of the reality of ANY religion or god, and there has been a TREMENDOUS amount of empirical proof AND evidence contradicting a huge number of parts of all these religions.

Well shit son, those religions can be objectively determined to be complete bullshit. It's not hypocritical, because all one must do is see and understand science, one must BELIEVE a religion: it's not my belief against theirs, it's facts against their beliefs. They are fucking wrong, the facts say so, no facts agree with them. They. Are. Wrong.

It's not hypocritical to call out bullshit, just because it's not how I see things does not mean I cannot speak on it -- I'd quite hope that it's not how I see things, because it's bullshit.

Just like how having an open mind doesn't mean you'll accept any old dogshit, it means you'll give anything a fair chance. All these religions have failed EVERY chance, and then quite a few that they never should have had.

It's just not hypocritical to say there's something wrong with lies, simply because I put stock in facts. Facts are not a religion, they're fucking FACTS!