If the whole world was catholic

Epiphany.....sweetheart I admire your time it took to copy and paste your "Stats" but you did not, again, provide a source. Where are the numbers coming from? I am not trying to be an ass, but do you understand how intellectually imperative this is? If you were in college posting this in a paper, you would have gotten a zero Please link me your Council of Trent information as well. Thanks.

 

Hun, I have written many cited papers in the past. I am aware of how to do so. Had this been a paper, I would have gone to painstaking lengths to note the title, author, page number, and paragraph. However, responding just last night, I didn't really have time to find as many avaliable resources. http://www.eschew.net/archives/000884.php is where those figures were found if you must know. The statements from the Council of Trent were found here http://orion.it.luc.edu/~lmilsk/101/counterreform.htm . But then again, history should provide information as well. What I find interesting is that the word Christian is often used when speaking of Catholics, which can be misleading at times, due to the fact that when describing a religion, merely saying Christian doesn't necessarily mention what religious faction was being spoken of. Being that I have heard my former Priests use the word, "Us Christians", in the past. Last, but certainly not least, you will note the word, "estimated", in front of the percentage. I never said that it was the exact number of deaths, but merely the theoried estimation of what researchers know from history. Yes, there have been religious wars in the past that have not involved the Catholic church, yet, that church is the topic of discussion at the moment. What I find condeming was the remark that persecution was still taking place to this day by the Catholic church. I mentioned the author and book in the previous post who made that statement. His end time bible prophecy is full of citations.

 

I went to nine years of Roman Catholic schooling, just to realize later on that their rules don't always coincide with the bible. One receives forgiveness for their sins through Christ and Christ alone - not some priest - for Christ was our intercessor. We are to pray to G-d and G-d alone, not the saints - when we assume that G-d doesn't have time for us, so we should pray to a saint, we are denying the omnipotence and omnipresence of the L-rd. I'm not trying to be a bible beater or anything, Catholics are good people (my mother is a Catholic, as was I at one time) and they are the most devout of any denomination. But they are also very conservative. Remember, a lot of Catholics are involved in the fight against abortion and gay marriage. Just because we, as Christians, don't believe in these things doesn't mean that we impose our beliefs on another human being. G-d gave us free will, and the ability to exercise it, so should we give others the option to do the same.

Actions speak louder than words! Live by example!

Oh, by the way remember the Inquisition? Lots of folks died in that.
Here's a good source: http://es.rice.edu/ES/humsoc/Galileo/Things/inquisition.html

And remember, NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION! (*GRIN*)

P.S. - BTW, many churches have sinned in the process of speading the Word, I love all you Catholics, so if ever anyone tries to put you down and hold the Inquisition over you, remind them about the protestants and the Salem Witch Trials. The loss of life was greater in the Inquisition, but the principle remains the same... Let those of you (and your churches) who have not sinned cast the first stone. Volunteers, anyone? Didn't think so...

P.P.S. - Holy Rollers are scary... My grandma is pentacostal.

 

*Walks up behind you and says, "BOO"*



*Jesus Freak and proud of it*

 

Actually many of the staunchest atheists I've known came out of Catholic upbringings - my dad's one, he was brought up in a town that was so predominantly Catholic (at the time, it had the largest Catholic percentage of populace) that the Catholic high school was the main high school. From an atheist/agnostic standpoint (I'm an agnostic-humanist myself) I think that a Catholic upbringing can create some pretty interesting and smart individuals, as growing up in such a system that tends to shove dogma on people often gets one's mind to start questioning the norm. I'm not trying to put down Catholicism, but that's been my experience with Catholic people. I only know a few very hardcore Catholics (and damn, they really are hardcore).

 

I was half joking, but anyway....

THESE ARE NOT RELIABLE WEBSITES!!!! Oh my god......you got PERSONAL WEBPAGES as information 1, from a teacher, and the other one is just some person who has a bird named pecker!!! (See the FAQ's "100 things you didnt know about me!"): That would not even cut it in a simple high school essay as a source. Try again Epiphany....you are the one making these claims, and you still have not substantially backed them up.

How is it misleading? In history books, prior to the 1500's, when it says, "The Church" or "Christian", it is referring to the Roman Catholic Church or Orthodox Churches, because they were the only ones around. So no, if you know history, it's not misleading at all. I am still confused on what you are saying though, possibly that Catholicism is not a Christian religion? Jerry Falwell would be proud to say the least.

You obviously thought they were accurate enough to post them as facts, didn't you? More importantly, it's scary you use personal webpages to cite facts for a historical discussion. If I want a fact about Bill Clinton, would I go to Anne Coulter's website? No, of course not, unless she cited information from another place that was reliable, which by the way, niether of yours did that either.

PLENTY of wars have involved other churches and religions.

Well, it was the topic of discussion but it's sort of dead at the moment, becasue you cannot provide a true source for your outlandish claims and data.

Yes, the Catholic Church, the big bully, is still persecuting people today. Get real. If his end prophecy citations are like the sites you posted above, then it just proves you can do anything in America, even be considered an "author." You could, actually, cite various things from the book, give us the source, and we could verify it, but I suppose that won't be happening? Look, it's ALOT of work to look up facts and research things, I know, trust me, but you cannot make claims and then when challenged, give sites you listed above as proof, it doesn't work in the real world.

 

That is your opinion, I happen to think otherwise.

My my, we have forgotten basic Catholic teaching haven't we? I beleive Christ himself commissioned the apostoles to forgive people IN HIS NAME, not that actual humans were the ones absolving sins.

Why are leaving out all of the "O"s? At any rate, that is not why we pray to saints, becasue we feel god does not have time for us, where on earth did you get that idea? We pray to saints ASKING them to pray for us. If I can pray for you, then the Holy Mother or St. Augustine, who are alive in heaven, should be able to as well. It's not denying anything to the Lord, it is merely asking people to pray for us.

Well, you are being a bible beater. But unfortunently for you, there are instances in the bible that back both of those teachings up. The other story is where Peter asks the saints to pray for him while he has golden bowles or somthing (I forgot the story exactly, I'll look it up)

So? I'm against abortion, becasue I don't think anyone has a legal right to kill an innocent human life. I support Gay marrige too, but let's not turn this into an abortion thread, please for the love of god.

Exactly why I don't buy into Luther's Justification by Faith alone, you need to live your life as Christ would, "Good works" so to speak, although I think that term is misused by Protestants a lot of the time.

I won't even go into the Inquistion, me and Epiphany are battleing that out on another thread if anyone wants to read it.

I'm sorry to hear that....and I am not being sarcastic.

 

I think that can happen in every religion, not just Catholicism. There are more Catholics on the planet than Protestants, so you hear about it more often.

Do you think I'm a hardcore Catholic? :sunglasse

 

If you know that your suppose to do things in HIS name, why doesn't the church baptize in his name? Interestingly enough, All four gospel writers mention, "baptism in his name"... But I forget that the Catholic church clings to the one scripture that says in the name of the father, the son, and the holy ghost.... But, the thing is, He died for our sins. He is our salvation. Salvation comes through his name. Jesus told us to do everything through his name... hence, why every example in the bible of someone being baptized, was baptized in his name.

Yes, but there is only one scriptural plan of salvation (John 3:5). Baptism in his name, and the infilling of the holy spirit. So, you can do as many good works as you want, but unless you follow the plan, then your not saved. Good works should come naturally if one is a believer, but Jesus clearly says that you cannot see the kingdom of Heaven unless you are saved, and I have stated his exact words on that many, many times. Read the parable of The Wedding Banquet in Matthew 22. When we are baptized in Jesus name, we are covered in his blood. The blood cleanses us. We are covered by grace. A white robe if you may. Notice in this parable that some of those who attend are asked where their clothing is. Baptism that is not in Jesus's name is not covered by his blood. The Catholic church baptizes in titles. A true church of Christ baptizes in the name of Christ because they know that he is our salvation.

As far as the sites I have cited, nothing else seems to have any percentages given on the figures of those who have been persecuted. Other sites talked about it, but none have given me any figures whatsoever. Sadly enough, I don't think I have read anything in history that has even begun to estimate the number of those who have died. Then again, I don't think that the writer from the site just pulled these numbers out of the air, so I suppose you could ask him where his citations are. However, I keep telling you that when Irvin Baxtor stated the number of 68 million, he said... ESTIMATED! He never said that was the exact number, so it doesn't really matter what sites I give you.


As far as the Catholic church persecuting others to this day.... I suppose neither of us will really know what goes on behind closed doors in other parts of this country. Irvin Baxtor was very good in his citations in his book. Sorry, I don't own it or else I would post every single citation he has given. I don't trust any rule that was made by a man claiming to be holy, but then added his own laws. Personally, I don't believe that anyone who is not filled with the holy ghost (and again we know by God's word the evidence of this is speaking in tongues) should be allowed to teach the word of God. The holy ghost is the counselor, teacher, guide. Someone who isn't filled really has no right to try to guide someone else in the word of the Lord. According the Jesus's plan of salvation, the pope isn't even saved. That's sad that someone who isn't on the right path can teach someone else.


I'm still interested in this power that you claim Mary posses. A close friend of my boyfriend happens to be a nun. Interestingly enough, she is filled with the holy ghost and speaks fluently in tongues. It may be a while before he has a chance to ask her, so I would like you to show me in the Bible where Mary's power is used. Not in cathecism, but in the Bible. Just to take another step further, I shall see if my grandmother can inquire about this in the Priest's exact words on Sunday.

"Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"....

Yes... she is full of grace. God's grace is given to his believers, that doesn't make her powerful. Holy, yes, she is holy. Come to my church, I shall show you several other holy people. She was looked upon by God to bare Christ in the flesh. Elizabeth was looked upon by God to bare John the Baptist. Does Elizabeth have power? nope! So, blessed and holy.... Did she cast out demons in Jesus's name as his apostles did? nope. Did she perform any miracles as the apostles did in the name of Jesus? nope! Through the holy ghost, she bore Jesus Christ. She certainly didn't do that on her own. It's called a miracle. True believers have miracles happen in their lives. Heck, unbelievers have miracles happen in their lives as well. Do they have power? nope! So again, please, please give me a verse in the Bible that says that Mary had a power.

It's interesting that you are against abortion, but for gay marriage. Why do people who say they are religious pick and chose things out of the bible to follow? I myself am against abortion as well. I am also against gay marriages. I don't have a problem with someone being homosexual because I know that as a believer of Christ, I must love the sinner, but hate the sin. However, I don't really see how you can support something that God teaches against in his word, and claim to be a follower. If you don't believe in all of the teachings, what's the point in just believing in a few?



Wow, I thank God every day for bringing me to truth every day.

 

LOL! I was kind of joking, buuut...

I'm not knocking you, really. I love my grandma, and she is a wonderful lady.
Her church services freak me out... Pentacostal isn't for everyone, but interestingly I got saved in her Pentacostal church during the sermon.

 

My, my, youself, my friend... no I haven't forgotten basic Catholic teachings. I'm telling you that G-d is the only one who can forgive your sins, Christ is your intercessor, and no one gets to the Father, except through him. You don't NEED a priest to absolve your sins, just as you don't NEED a saint to pray for you, you need to pray to G-d and have a personal relationship with Christ... (I don't include vowels when writing the names of the L-rd because I am a Messanic Jew, and we believe that is close to idolatry to write the name of G-d in vain... Thanks for asking! )

Well, since the BIBLE is what our religions are based on, it only helps to know what it says. The Catholic church draws some of its canon laws off of things that aren't even bible based... And we are supposed to pray for others, of course. When did I ever say we shouldn't?

You have no right to impose your will on others, but that's just how I feel. You can't prevent people from doing the wrong thing, and you certainly shouldn't criminalize it. They'll know the truth eventually (most people who follow through with abortion end up regretting it, or having serious feelings of remorse). But that's my opinion, which is what I thought we were supposed to be sharing.

You can-NOT get into heaven by "good works" alone, which is what a lot of Catholics believe.... For G-d so loved the world, He gave His only begotten son, whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. This is John 3:16, and I may not be quoting it EXACTLY, but I think I am. But this is the gist of Christianity as a whole... We are saved by our faith.

And, why on Earth are you taking this as a personal attack? You could stand to be a little less sarcastic in your post, someone might think you were a creep or something...

BTW, don't be sorry my grandmother is a Pentacostal, she has a heart of gold.

 

I was joking as well. I know what you mean. I wasn't freaked out the first time I went just because it was exactly what I was looking for. I call it my hippie church. Drums, dancing, singing... It's great. My family refuses to go because it scares them as well. Not many churches teach about how they use to dance and sing in the old testament so people are frightened by the aspect of it. It's great to hear about your salvation there though

 

Thanks! I still go to that pentacostal church with my grandma, sometimes...
I *LOVE* everything about it (dancing, singing, drums!), except for the speaking in tongues, which I just find strange, and when the whole church has a "holy ghost" service, I can't lie, I usually leave. Maybe I just don't understand...

 

The only thing that bothers me about my church speaking in tongues is that I don't do it as often as I should. It's just hard for me to make that connection. Some people can go right into it, but I can't. I have to concentrate and I always seem to get distracted. At times I feel as if everyone else is holier than I am. I have to admit though, being filled with the holy ghost and speaking in tongues for the first time was the most amazing feeling ever next to being baptized. It's cool to hear that you love the Pentecostal church though! *hugs*

 

I don't think any Catholic will dispute that. Perhaps when we say Mary or the Saints as intercedeing for us, but that simply means praying for us on our behalf.

I disagree, well sort of. My parents brought me up to beleive you could go to God without going to a priest, however, I respect the Church's teaching about confession, and I think that is the right way to do it, when you can. It's hard to go to confession on a regular routine. Christ clearly commissioned the apostoles to forgive others in his name. Again, this is a scriptural interpretation we disagree on.

Not trying to disrespect you at all, was just curious, on a lighter note,...this Baptist Girl i know capitalizes CHRIST in words like "CHRISTmas" and her name, "CHRISTina"

No, Catholic doctrine is based on the bible AND Tradition....from the early church fathers. Well, I figured since you were not Catholic, you did not think it was appropriate for us to ask the Virgin Mary and Saints to pray for us, most Protestants don't.

Are we talking about abortion? I forgot...seriously......at any rate, I don't think you have the right to slaughter your unborn baby (except for the rare instances, rape, danger of mother etc)..it's still a human life from the moment of conception, medical fact.

And you cannot get into heaven by "FAITH" alone, that is bullshit. You cannot sit there on your butt and do nothing and say or beleive you have faith, and automatically go to heaven. No other Catholic, including myself, my family, friends, has EVER been taught by good works alone would get you into heaven. I think it is equally dangerous to just say the magic word, "FAITH", and know 100% sure you're going to heaven, that is quite arrogant, IMO. My dad explained it well, even to a lot of our Protestant family friends, Faith through Good works, and vice versa. You would probably see it as Good works through faith, which is essentially the same thing!

Sorry, I am a sarcastic person. I won't change for you.

Oh I was half joking, I'm sure she does. I just think a lot of them are loonie, but I'd hate to hear what she thinks of Roman Catholics

 

Hell. .....

 

But in the same way you cannot say, "I have faith, and I give to the poor, I am going to Heaven." .... Heaven takes hard work. No, you do not get there simply by faith (the Bible says that), but you do not get there by simply doing good works either (the Bible says that also) "Many are chosen, but few will enter". Getting into Heaven requires discipline, structure, truth, and taking up your cross daily. Not just faith, nor good works, nor even a combination of both. God knows your heart and how honest and sincere you are in your love of Him. I can have faith, I can do good deeds, but what if I am bitter and angry all the time?

I am Pentecostal and I have felt this way about the Catholic church for years. As I recall, it was attending the Christian school/church that opened my eyes for the first time. The truth about baptism, the holy spirit, etc. It paved the way in learning that what the Catholic church had taught me was only half truth mixed in with man made rules. I would personally rather have the whole truth. As I have said, I was raised Catholic, my entire family is Catholic. I don't have a problem with them, but I have a problem with the fact that they believe they are going to make it to Heaven when they are not saved according to how the Bible tells us. I find that sad. That is all I have to say for now. I am still waiting for your response to my last post.

 

Many writers in this thread have gotten a bit off track. I am really curious if people, even those of different Christian cults, think that an all pervasive belief in Christ would make the world a better place, and if so, then why?

 

hey I've only got upto page 2 of reading this and now I'm bored but my gut feeling is breeding EVILLLLL... keep up the good work (y) make satan proud hey there's already been an evil pope by the way - have you guys not seen little nicky? when adrian turned into the pope? or was it cassius? i can't remember. That's such a great film.

oops sorry just remembered i dont think he was the pope, just a priest of some sort, My bad. Guess there's still one to come.

 

Oh really? Ever heard of the mormon church? I can assure that they are growing much faster than the catholic church.