If the whole world was catholic

Every religion has its flaw. The Catholic Church is the only christian church that stays pretty hard core to its teachings, and doesn't evolve very quickly with society, and it's good and bad in many ways.

Catholicism, unforutunately, has gotten a bad wrap lately because of the molesting priests and its stand on homosexuality in an era of political correction and dramatic social change, which is why a lot of people (including myself) has steered away from it.

Pick any religion, can you imagine EVERYONE in the world worshiping only that faith? We need the diversity in this world, which is why there are different languages, different cultures, and of course, different religions. What we ought to focus on is despite our differences, we have to learn to live with them and respect others for their differences.

 

I beg to differ, there are many other branches/denominations/churches of Christianity that have stayed true to it's teachings and haven't evolved. In fact, while I am not highly knowledgeable on this subject, I would think Catholicism is the one church that DOESN'T stay true to it's teachings, as per all the rule changes and what not by the pope! I really honestly don't know of any other branch of Christianity in which the basic rules and tenets of living life are determined by man and not God, and because it's determined by man, it changes according to man's eyes how it should change, and I know that I have read several articles about how the popes changed parts of it's doctrine.

 

If you think that the Catholic church is just like all other religions then I guess we will have to disagree. I do see your point, but the Catholic Church is the richest and most powerful institution on the planet. They have always been deeply involved in politics and have always taught that salvation was theirs (and theirs alone) to hand out. MANY other religions do not teach that, many other religions avoid weatlh and power. And to my knowledge no other religion has a 'king' which sits on a throne in his own country with a crown.

Am I saying that all other elgiions must be good? No. But I am saying you can't just say it is like every other religion.

 

"LOL, so then every single person, including Peter himself, was a fundamentalist wacko, when they ALL recieved the holy spirit during Pentecost and spoke in tongues in the book of Acts?"

No, you're twisting my words around and you know it. It is fundamentalist nonsense, however, to believe that glossolalia is the one sure-fire sign that the Holy Spirit has filled a person. To you people, faith doesn't matter; works don't matter; the only thing that matters is glossiolia. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

"Well, the infilling of the holy spirit is mentioned over and over again by Jesus himself, so I must be a fundamentalist wacko for following Jesus's teachings!"

No, your a fundamentalist wacko for taking the bible literally.

 

I'm sorry, that was harsh. I don't think your a fundamentalist wacko. I'm tolerant of most Christian denominations, but the Pentecostals really irritate me. They're selling the easiest way to salvation and the false hope that it offers. Speaking in tongues requires none of the fear or effort or resignation that is necessary for salvation; it only requires a powerful desire to be saved (which is a part of salvation, but not the most important part). The Pentacostals are showmen. I think you should read an unbiased history of the movement. They were televangelists before television. If you're still convinced of your convictions after that, then I feel sorry for you. I'm apologising for what I said to you, but I still hate that church and all its lies.

 

I have attended churches of almost every denomenation and if you want to see people excited about God, searching for God, living for God go to a pentecostel service. Sure they are loud, and rambunctious... why does that scare people so much? The bible is full of singing and dancing for God. (And healing and speaking in tongues.) CHurch has to be dead to be effective?


"Speaking in tongues requires none of the fear or effort or resignation that is necessary for salvation"
Who the hell is your saviour? I don't remember Jesus teachign about fear or effort or resignation. He taught about love, acceptance, and not judging people. Fear is a tool of the dark side and if it is part of your religion I would hate to meet your God.

 

Basic Catholic teaching has stayed the same for hunderes of years. What are you talking about specifically? The last big changes were at Vatican II over 30 years ago. Those main changes were vernacular languages (no more whole latin masses) for ordinary time masses (not in holiday seasons) and recognizing non Catholics being able to attain salvation.

 

"I have attended churches of almost every denomenation and if you want to see people excited about God, searching for God, living for God go to a pentecostel service. Sure they are loud, and rambunctious... why does that scare people so much? The bible is full of singing and dancing for God. (And healing and speaking in tongues.) CHurch has to be dead to be effective?"

It's not the music or anything like that that bothers me. It's the doctrine, pure and simple.

"Who the hell is your saviour? I don't remember Jesus teachign about fear or effort or resignation. He taught about love, acceptance, and not judging people. Fear is a tool of the dark side and if it is part of your religion I would hate to meet your God."

Fear is what any humble person feels when he recognizes his own weakness when compared to God and the fact that the fate of his immortal soul is entirely in God's hands. Effort is what goes into good works and believing in Christ's new convenant (as opposed to passively letting the Holy Spirit "fill you" or, all of a sudden, being "born again"). And resignation is that final effort of giving yourself entirely to God.

And no, perhaps Christ did not teach specifically about these things, and that's one thing that really irritates me about fundamentalists; that they don't develop Christ's teachings through to their natural implications, and that they dehumanize faith to such a degree that it must be perfect and unquestioning. It's impossible for any thinking human being to never doubt his faith, and if you find such a person, I question whether he really has faith at all.

 

Uh... without my faith, NOTHING would matter, for one. If works didn't matter, I would sound something like this: "Praise God, but I'm not going to help this person over here"... not very religious is it?

The only things you shouldn't take literally in the bible, are things such as, "removing the plank for your eye", which we know is a metaphor, and the creatures of Revelation because we know they represent nations/kings, etc. I'm filled with the holy ghost. Do you want to tell me that speaking in a language, that I have no control of because the words do not come from anything I have ever learned in my entire life is not literal? I have never spoken in this language before. I would much rather be a Jesus freak and be with him one day, then looking, "normal", in society's eyes.

I agree with POPthree13. It was not until I became a member of the Pentecostal church that I witnessed people who were honestly on fire for God. The Christian school taught me a bit about true baptism, and the holy spirit, so they come in second on my list. Sure, people aren't use to it because so many factions of religion have broken away from how it was back then. Yes, people in the bible sang and danced. They rejoiced. They didn't sit perfectly still with their hands in their laps, singing quietly. Think about it, if your Savior was sitting next to you, would you be sitting there like a bump on a log, or would you be full of joy?

• Exodus 15:28 "Aaron's sister took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women followed her, with tambourines and dancing"
• 1 Samuel 6:13 "David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the Lord with all his might"
• Psalms 149:3 "Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp"

I would have to agree in saying that some Christian churches have remained true. But as far as Pentecostals, I will tell you that my church eats, sleeps, and breathes Jesus. They praise him when the sun comes up, during the day, and when the sun goes down. I cannot think of anything that they have changed or added to the word. They are a very blessed group of people.

Jozak, Peter was the rock that that the church was founded on, correct? The Catholic church doesn't preach his teachings today, so tell me how it has not changed. Peter taught baptism in the name of Jesus. The Catholic church baptizes with the name of the Trinity. Peter taught of the holy ghost and tongues, My Catholic family and friends looked at me funny when I brought up tongues. The Catholic church wouldn't dare dance, let alone move while singing it's hymns. I just went over all the verses about dancing in the Bible. So, please explain to me exactly how the Catholic church remains true?

 

Speaking in tongues doesn't require effort? Um, the first recievers of God's spirit spent time in earnest prayer, locked away in a room before it was unleashed upon them. Does that not sound like effort?

 

"Speaking in tongues doesn't require effort? Um, the first recievers of God's spirit spent time in earnest prayer, locked away in a room before it was unleashed upon them. Does that not sound like effort?"

That's right, the apostles did. They were not, all of a sudden, born again, they frequently doubted their faith, and often failed follow God's Word. And yet many of those pathetic people eventually became martyrs. That takes effort, and not just "time in earnest prayer" but a whole lifetime of devotion.

Also, what about John the Baptist? Didn't he receive the Spirit in his mother's womb before the apostles?

 

I guess if you think that is the key salvation then go with that man! Fear that God is more powerful that you? Sounds like and ego trip. I would take comfort that in the fact that you have a strogn ally.
It takes effort to do good works? I find that good works repay themselves again and again.
Resignation... yes putting all of your fear and worry on him. Realizing you control nothing. I think that is a releif.

 

Well there are several examples that I remember, but the only one I can think of off the top of my head is that for Catholics, eating meat on Fridays used to be a sin. Then the pope or someone went and changed the rules and decided that it WASN'T a sin. And this wasn't that long ago, either. This is also a perfect example of my comment about how in Catholicism, MAN determines how people who follow it live, not God himself.

Besides, it doesn't matter WHEN changes were made or what those changes were... the fact remains that there WERE changes, so you can't say that the principles or doctrines of the Catholic church is the only one that has remained unchanged or true to it's origins. I don't think you can say that about any denomination, really.

 

It's foolsih to try to compare a Catholic mass to a Pentacostal service. You will get no where. Catholic masses happen to be very traditional and reserved. If you went back in time 500 years ago the basic mass would be the exact same as it is today, with some changes here and there.

Epiphany, Pentacostal services scare the hell out of me. I don't like them. It does not even feel like Church to me. You call it, "on fire for Christ" or whatever, but I don't like loud outbursts, shouting, in fact, I laughed much of the time. It was absurd to me, and I felt like a lot of it was bullshit, people putting it on for show. I respect Pentacostal services if they help people in their faith with Christ, such as yourself, but you have to understand and respect the fact that most Catholics do not want to worship that way. If it works for you epiphany, GREAT, more power to you, but don't knock a Cathoic's faith in Christ becasue it is different than yours, especially when our way was long before yours. Unfortunently, the Pentacostal church does not have the best reputation of being tolearnt of other people's faith, which is a big reason I don't like it. I LOVE catholic masses, I have been to almost every other denomination you can think of, and they just aren't for me. My mom was not Catholic when she married my father, and she fell in love with it and converted (my dad did not make her or even pressure her about it.) People have different tastes, that's all.

 

"Fear that God is more powerful that you? Sounds like and ego trip. I would take comfort that in the fact that you have a strogn ally."

It's really the exact opposite of an ego trip. It's only natural to fear, respect, and be in awe of a being greater than yourself. An ally is an equal partner, and I am certainly not the equal of God.

"It takes effort to do good works? I find that good works repay themselves again and again."

Repay in what way? If you're talking about that 'warm fuzzy feeling inside' then sure, but practically, good people get short end of the stick.

"Resignation... yes putting all of your fear and worry on him. Realizing you control nothing. I think that is a releif."

Yes, it is a relief. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone can feel that way all the time.

P.S.

To Epiphany:

If you were raised Catholic and feel that glossalolia is so important, then why didn't you join the charismatic movement?

 

Allies do not have to be equal. But I think ALL of life is an extension of God. Not separate from it, part of it. Just my opinion. I feel like a skin cell on the big organism of God. Do my skin cells fear me because I am bigger, more powerful and in control? (I know that sound rediculous, but I hope you can see my point.)

I do good deeds unto others because it is the right thing to do, not for reward. However, I have never really wanted for anything and I can't explain why except that you are given back many times what you give. I beleive in this whole-heartedly and your bible tells you so, so disagree if you'd like.

Sure, no one can feel at peace all the time, but some of us are at peace a lot more than others.

 

"Allies do not have to be equal."

I suppose you're right. But the fact still remains that if I anger God, He could destroy me or do far worse. He commanded that Moses and his people wander in the desert for forty days after Moses hit a rock with a stick. He kicked humanity out of paradise after Adam and Eve ate a fruit.

"But I think ALL of life is an extension of God. Not separate from it, part of it. Just my opinion."

I don't think that the relationship between God and His creation can be understood, so you may be right for all I know, or at least partially right.

"I feel like a skin cell on the big organism of God. Do my skin cells fear me because I am bigger, more powerful and in control? (I know that sound rediculous, but I hope you can see my point.)"

I think I do see your point, but I don't like the analogy. People, of course, are far more complex than skin cells. Skin cells don't have free will or even the illusion of it. They do as their DNA tells them. We do have a choice to obey God or not. And even if everything is predetermined, and this is Leibnitz's best of all possible worlds, and we are always doing God's Will whether we are aware of it or not, that fear that we may be displeasing Him is always present.

"I do good deeds unto others because it is the right thing to do, not for reward. However, I have never really wanted for anything and I can't explain why except that you are given back many times what you give. I beleive in this whole-heartedly and your bible tells you so, so disagree if you'd like."

I do agree. However, I have two questions: 1) Do you believe that good things happen to good people in this life? And 2) How can your (or anyone else's, for that matter) standard of good compare to that of a perfect being?

"Sure, no one can feel at peace all the time, but some of us are at peace a lot more than others."

That's true, and I do think that there are some people out there who are at peace because they have truly surrendered themselves to God. I hope to be one of those people, at least before I die. However, I think that many of those people who have found peace are really just ignorant. I don't know if it is right to sacrafice thought for peace, but I do know that since I've been thinking about these problems, I can't stop. And even if I could, I probably wouldn't.

 

In the past, The Catholic church holds the record for killing an estimated 68 million Christians. There are still some nations today where your life would be in danger if you were to oppose the teachings of the Catholic church. We know that in Revelation, this one world religion will persecute and kill those who are not in line with the plan. If they did then, continue to do so now, then who is to say that they aren't the ones who will do so in the future? There are too many similarities between the catholic church and the prophecies of Revelation. It's rather frightening.

 

Prove it. And when I say prove it, I mean with a reliable source.

 

• Between 5000 and 6000 Protestants were drowned by Spanish Catholic Troops
• 1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
• 17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him
• 17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain
• 1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading
• In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveliç,
• Fued in Ireland between Catholics and Protestants

The figure, "68 million", was given by Irvin Baxter in his "End Time Prophecy". If I had the book with me, I could you give more information.

I didn't say that the Catholic church WAS the one world religion of Revelation, however, many things prophecised bare a resemblance. I've gone over a few of them in other posts so I won't repeat myself. But look again at the Vatican pushing for interfaithism post.... I don't see any other dominate religion pushing for it. There is a percentage of all of the nations that have undergone Catholic conversion. Again, Irvin Baxter listed the percentage in his book.

Hmmm, I would like to go back to my old church that some family members of mine still attend, and point out specific things in the bible that are not taught there, as well as show the similarites between the, "black/dark", pope of Catholic prophecy, and the false prophet. It would be quite interesting to hear the priest's opinion.

I also read something interesting
Council of Trent (1545-15630 was a meeting called by Pope John Paul III to address the challenge of the Protestants. It created a very conservative response to the challenge and renewed a conservative Catholic doctrine.



It asserted:



· That the Eucharist was metaphorically and actually (really and physically) the body and blood of Christ.

· That the Saints and their relics existed (Where does God say the authority to declare someone a saint was given to the Vatican? much less, where in the bible are all of these relics? And this ever-growing list of saints mentioned? God gave us one book to follow. He didn't say, "the word of God, plus, these books over here. Peter refers to Christ's followers as saints)

· That celibate Priests were necessary to intercede between God and Man (Correction... If you can pray, you can intercede. All prayer effects Heaven. Not just those who are celibate. For example, my Pastor is married with three children. He has interceded on countless occasions)

· That the authority of the Church – not a minister or the people or the Bible– determined correct faith (The authority of the church determines the correct faith? LOL)