I start training for Iraq

I am talking about murder because killing innocents is murder.

 

Delete

 

Alright, I do respect you if you are one of those people who went to Iraq or afghanistan under the impression that you were saving our freedom.
BUT
I don't respect the idiot bush for sending you there, the bastard is sending these men for the wrong reasons and that bastard is going to burn in hell for all those innocent deaths. I hope. That loser

 

you obviously don't know how much information i have do you?

and actually some nations are developing aircrafts that have more capabilities and better weapons than we do - better aircraft that can fly over our land and strike without us being able to respond. so yes, i do know some things. they can out fly and maneuver our aircraft.

i'm not part of the majority. and i wont' bow to anyone. and when there is a nation that is capable of landing on our land, then maybe i'll make the decision to join - but until then, like i told a former Chief of Staff (ret. Army) whose an alum of my school, career army officers, and highly ranked enlisted men - they will not see me in service because as it stands today it conflicts with my beliefs and honor code.

you act like some "terrorists" over in the middle east have the capability to take and hold control over our vast lands.

 

I don't have any intention to support my previous claims. However, I stand by my first response: May anyone who willfully kills an innocent human being burn in hell! may it be saddam or Mr. Bush. The end, my conversation ends here.

Again, thanks for your dedication to this country, I only wish your dedication and love for this country was not abused by people who don't deserve to be in power.

 

i was talking about air craft maneuverability, which yes, there are nations that could beat our systems and possibly land an attack here in the US. but you're right, we can counter attack with more force...i never said we couldn't. just saying that currently (or will be in production soon), there are some fighter jets that are faster, maneuver better, and have better weapon system than our jets in our forces. but we are producing our own and will be phasing out models that are not as effiecient, but it is qiute costly to do so, considering each service uses air space differently

we do however, train our pilots better...

and to think we will always be the sole superpower is troublesome too. its the way of the world and history when powers fall.

 

Keep your head down and don't volunteer for anything.And while the cats away the mice will play.Think about it.

 

That is so sexy....I love a man in the uniform.

 

I know what reality is, clearly you do not.

that is unfortunate.

 

People like you make my skin crawl. Who gives a fuck about them anyway, eh? They are only Muslims.

 

ForOwls opinions reflect the mindset of folks who sincerely believe that they are protecting American freedoms by deploying to Iraq. You and I will reflect the opinion that the Iraq war is based on bad intelligence and disinformation. Each party will stick with it's choice of information source that will support his or her point of view. Saying that someone makes your skin crawl does nothing to further what could be a valid point and only widens the rift. It borders on personal attack which has no place in any debate.

I remember images fed to us by our news media post- 9/11; where Muslim civilians wildly celebrating upon receiving word of the death and destruction here. It's very difficult not to nurture a loathing for the person when one does not consider that they are simply a result of the information selectively fed to them.

In order to pursued an aggressive foreign policy our leaders need to recruit participants who wholeheartedly believe in what they are doing. They are not above nurturing hatred for a population to address their need to man a force. At times I find the opinions to be chilling but I absolutely must give a pass to those who have the guts to put their lives on the line for what they sincerely believe. They aren't the enemy and venting at them is a waste of good anger, which is better directed at the folks who spun the tales to support an ill-advised war. We're supposed to have faith in our leaders and it isn't the troops who are violating that trust.

 

Some where in the middle east an Arab kid is telling his mates, "I started training for Iraq" maybe you guys will meet someday? 50/50 chance in war time.

 

Stinkfoot,
You are consistently eloquent, reasonable and informed in the majority of your posts. I consider myself to be quite reasonable and open to discussion most of the time. The OP is entitled to his beliefs however warped I may find his arguments and I would not wish any harm on him like some others here but just sincerely hope that, for whatever reason, he doesn't get to go to Iraq. And as for ForOwls, once again his opinions are just that, his. However when I see somebody wishing for more or less the annihilation of a nation, or creed of believers, it makes my skin crawl.

ForOwls,
You cite that it is your direct contact with these people that has fuelled your hatred and willingness to kill them. I have not as yet been to Iraq, but I have travelled extensively in two of the other 'axis of evil', Iran and Afghanistan. I encountered nothing but good tidings, great food, amazing warmth and hospitality, moreso in Iran to be honest.
Maybe the reason our perspectives on these people are so different has something to do with the capacity we went there in...you as part of a narrow-minded killing machine, me as an open-minded traveller looking to find what one of our more ancient civilisations was actually like.
I find it amazing that there are still people who are willing to kill complete strangers for a pay-packet and maybe a medal.

 

The older I get the more suspicious I become of what is fed to me as news. I'm keenly aware that I'm not infallible and if I learn that my opinions, which are based somewhat on half-truths and agenda-driven assumptions, are false- I will be less than shocked.

My universe subsists on lies. My job is a culture cultivated in deception. Some friendships I had at one time considered close have proven to be attractively packaged prevarications. Numerous forces seek to mislead us for a reason. Propaganda is neatly packaged as news so that those who take it in as such will develop a frame of mind concerning a policy or issue that will predetermine its future.

Sometimes it is necessary to mislead the masses a bit- to protect the general population from a truth whose revelation might jeopardize the safety of people whether they be soldiers or civilians. At times it might serve a greater good to cultivate grassroots endorsement of a military action that otherwise wouldn't be popular by exaggerating the aggressive intent of a foe... FDR tried this in the year before Pearl Harbor. He very much wanted to support his buddy, Churchill A depression weary population wanted nothing to do with what was largely felt was Europe's war.

American history books treat the second world war with kid gloves. I look back at what I was taught and realize how sanitized it was. There were no test questions about Japanese internment camps here in the U.S. There was no chapter about how FDR had a warship made to look like a merchant vessel shadow a German sub previous to our involvement in an attempt to provoke an attack and create justification for the United States to step beyond Lend-Lease in aiding Great Britain against her foe, Germany.

An uninformed population is easy to control. In the intervening years since our last declared war, the amount of information available has mushroomed... perhaps to the point to where there is too much... and not enough of it is credible. The best check and balance to the U.S. government is an activist driven population, but there is just so much information, disinformation, propaganda, and outright deceit that I suspect most have just become numb, and the perception that as an individual they have no real power figure why bother?

The reasoning that the Bush administration had for going into Iraq has been pretty well refuted but I don't see enough people REALLY pissed about that in my day to day life. I'd wager more would be willing to be activists if there were a draft... apart from our taxes which are funding and will continue to fund this we civilians have no real ownership of the policy. While I suspect that we are in Iraq because of oil, I'm ill-equipped to back that up and even if the truth DID come out as that- I doubt most people would give a flying fuck... at least not enough to actually DO anything.

None of my sources can claim any unique hold on credibility- they all seem to have one agenda or another- and I need to filter the data I get from them through that. I do have my gut feeling and my opinion which can't possibly be based on any experience I've had.

This has rambled and I'm close to logging off and getting some sleep but I had to give some sort of response to both camps here- each who feel equally passionate about his opinion. I cannot imagine feeling the urge to kill someone based solely on his or her nationality- but who knows... I might feel quite differently if I had walked in ForOwls' shoes.

 

Thats what your told to think you are a good soldier, now enough talking and go fight.Like a good boy.I salute you.

 

it wasn't meant to be an argument, it was acceptance that you see the world as it has been told to you, in a very small box, that is not reality, that is the paint that has been put on the vanvas of a very small portion of reality, that is humanities bullshit

reality, reality is a whole host of things, but first among them the rules that govern how things work, the stuff that makes guns work, the stuff that makes the sun work. THAT is reality, the curent political situation is far from reality, it is a minor blip on the glass of history, it is meaningless, and it has no effect on what we can actually do

reality, reality is the only thing that should ever stop someone from being able to do something, not this bullshit, temporal, "because we said so" of humans describing a situation to other humans, no better or worse than themselves.

THAT is reality, and my "argument" was accepting that you do not understand that, and in acceptance, that it was a waste of time to try to explain it to you, right now, I have some time to waste though, so, there you are.

now, go, and look at the world differently (even though I know this has made no impact on you) be redeemed from your "because dey said so" ways, and throw turpentine upon the canvas of reality to bring forth the opus of your own life without the preconceptions, definitions, and good spots already taken.

 

I seriously doubt that either side will successfully convince the other so tossing in characterizations calculated to belittle other posters will certainly turn this thread into a flame war. I'm perfectly secure knowing that some folks will look at my position as tired and played out and I have little doubt that my disagreement with other positions will do little in getting others to reconsider them.

The beauty of this site is that we all can express freely our views and the intelligence displayed on both sides suggests to me that all players will be able to argue their points without taking veiled potshots at their opposition.

 

I think you get your information from sources that support your view of the world, and who you are, and you have to in order to be able to look at yourself in the mirror to shave to army trim every morning

You assume an absurd number of things about me, the hypocrisy of berating anyone for assuming anything in this format is absurd, I have to assume you are who you say you are at the very least, as I have no means of verifying anything you do say, at the most, assumptions are made whenever anything negative is presented, because

lets be honest, who is going to come onto a website and say "I am an asshole" and list their negative traits so everyone knows, and can remind the person of them. I have to make projections, you have to make projections, it's part of the game you are playing right now assuming I have not traveled, I have, you assumed wrongly, sorry, wah wah, you lose (although, to be fair, my last trip was a complete failure, and next time I am just hitching home)

do you want to metacomment until we both get bored of this? I don't, I'd actually like to see some real legitimate progress, I honestly think you look at reality as a function of the power that is presently there, and a function of how people "will always act" and "what will always happen" based on those posts of yours I have seen, and, I understand that standpoint, I have days where I feel that way, but, really, reality is just physics

you really can get away with murder, is it against the law? sure, does that mean you can't do it? no. does this ability mean you should? of course not, but "reality" is a word you have been throwing around MUCH too freely

reality is immutable, it is firmament, everything else is just interference. you don't get to break those laws, when it becomes REALLY impossible to change something, when it becomes really impossible to overturn a government, when it becomes really impossible to fight injustice? then we might be talking about reality, meanwhile? it's just society.

this is not merely semantic, it is relevant, and the choice to understand it actively is important, the choice to actively understand that people are all the same, just because someone is in authority, there is nothing superior about them, they're still people, even if humanity has classicly deified leaders.

I don't know, honestly, if you can see the territory of blank reality from where you are, but, the way you argue, it really feels like you are just supporting society being reality. countries that have recently seen anarchy know differently, talk to some people who used to be middle class in some of those countries, see how they feel about the american feeling of invulnerable entitlement, a few of them might even laugh if they've had a good day.

 

Mike Gravel isn't dead last - he's still above Kucinich.

As for Ron Paul, well, he's not dead last either. In fact, he's not far behind Huckabee and Hunter, and he's got Tancredo beat. You also should have displayed the whole truth of opinion on the Republican candidates, which is that no one has a majority, no one is even close to a majority. The Republicans are too torn to be effective.

You also forgot to mention how many Democrats and Unaffiliated will be registering Republican so that they can vote for Ron Paul in the primaries.

I wonder what your political affiliation is, and I won't attack you for what I believe it to be. But I find it hilarious that most GOP members can't even remember what their party was founded upon - Constitutionalism, noninterventionist foreign policy.

I also find it hilarious that you write off these instances when the president has found loopholes in the Constitution and gone forth to defy it as insignificant.

Because, you know, the Constitution isn't important when the President's got to do his job.

I'm curious: what are the Republican candidates' timelines for Iraq? It seems they are indefinite, but do you honestly think the American people will be lead blindly into something like that? We are a demanding nation, and when someone says "We'll be there until the job is done," it will not grab voters. "Until the job is done" will never occur. The job will be done when every faction of Islam can live together in peace. They haven't done so for a thousand years. What makes you think America can make it happen?

Even if we do manage to stabilize the area soon, we won't be able to pull troops out until the Middle East is secured. This will take at least 30 years. Iraqis have suppression in their blood - it is all they know. They will only truly be free and democratic when a child grows up and knows the same freedoms we know here in America. The change isn't militarial, it's not even political: it is generational and cultural. Do you actually think that will happen in our lifetime? Today's Iraqi children will have to be grandparents before that happens.

You know, I just have to laugh.

 

"They have lost the right to self governance."

so who decides when you lose the right to self governance?

when we get our economy collapsed by china selling all their bonds? and our nation collapses, and the wolves begin circling? does that lose us that right?

or when someone finally invades?

No man EVER has the right to remove the right of self governance from another, he might limit it, but removal of it is without exception, wrong, I thought you were the conservative on the side of this argument.