I have a question regarding the environment and libertarians?

And one I’d love to open – roll on another thread –

Reforming Campaign Financing
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?p=7743390#post7743390

 

Indie

But there are many outstanding criticisms of the right wing libertarian approach – can you address them, and if not why not?

To recap - The right wing libertarian environmental policy seems to come down to two things -

1 Deregulation to make things ‘simpler’
2 A reliance on property rights and torts to deter wrong doing.

Others are sceptical that these would work and think they are more likely to make things worse and the right wing libertarians don’t seem able to refute their criticisms.

Thing is that some things need to be regulated and most right wing libertarians agree with that but beyond slogans and assertion they don’t seem able to say what regulation they would have and what they would remove and don’t seem clear on who would be setting the regulations.

Many of us seem to think that there needs to be more than property rights and torts as a deterrent and they are there anyway, we think there needs to be robust bodies backed up with strong regulation that can investigate and inspect, to stop things from going wrong.

And there is another concern right wing libertarian seem to want to vastly increase the power and influence of wealth (through changes in the tax structure etc) and this in a political system dominated by money I fear that wealth would have a greater influence on how regulation was formed and that it would be formed to advantage themselves rather than the environment.

 

I would call myself a Classic Liberal. I don't dislike Liberals, I just dislike the status quo. But socially, I'm very Liberal! I want people to be free to marry who they want/do whatever they want with their body. Those are Liberal Ideas, I'm just economically Conservative; because the only way, imho, to get the economy rolling again, and get people back to work, is letting more small businesses keep their money, and not have so much burden placed on them. This would work almost immediately and citizens would go back to work. Even government understands the way to get people to invest in their business is to deregulate and go down on taxes. I'm not totally capitalist; I just think we should have a Government "for the people" not just "by the people," some individuals claim we have a Government "Of the people" but a government of filthy rich family oligarchs, don't quite understand society, they only treat us as statistics. So, it's complicated. I just think freedom works for everyone- but you can't use your freedom to take other peoples freedoms, steal/destroy someones private property or commit any violent crimes. That, to me is the way to peace. America's prisons are 40% overpopulated, and most "criminals" are non violent drug users. They are just now abolishing manditory minimum sentences (which I've wanted sinve age 16) but it's still moving too slow; cops continue to wage a brutal assualt on the Constitution, in the name of fighting this "war on drugs" and it's totally pointless, harmful, expensive and, that also create and underlying distrust for government/police because they are known to violate the Constitution of anyone who doesn't know it.

 

25

Sorry I’ve had a lot of discussions with right wing libertarians and they are not socially left wing, they just have a right wing take on social problems. Often what they mean is they ‘don’t care’.

To explain - the left wing approach on social issues is about trying to help, to assist, to change, to try and improve a situation - for example in drugs they see it as a health issue and want to assist, and with abortion they ask why and try and work toward reducing the numbers to the very minimum through such things as education and good healthcare but if they are to take place they want them to be done in the best possible surroundings.

It seems to me that the right wing approach (that they claim to be leftie) is basically ‘I don’t care as long as it doesn’t affect me or means I have to pay for it in taxes’, it is not about helping people with problems but about not caring if they have problems.

Here is a discussion on drugs - Rightwing libertarians and drugs
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...d.php?t=368871

 

25

As to the environmental issue can you address the criticisms and concerns that have been raised over right wing libertarian ideas?

And if not why not?

 

Well, why should we have a massive federal government who wastes our money? I about legalization and rehab taking the place of prisons. But I don't support cops chasing drug using citizens down with my tax money. But taxes are theft. The government overtaxes us, and our freedom comes second to our alleged "safety." When the government is more dangerous than every criminal in this country,and every Al Qaeda in the world. THAT'S what I'm against my tax money going to. Wasted government.

 

25

Sorry that’s just more sloganising and rhetoric.

Again - can you address the criticisms and concerns raised over right wing libertarian thinking on the environment?

And if not why not?

 

I will address them best I could, but I'm not about to flip to every individual post, as all you cited was the post numbers, and I'm not about to read all these pages.

 

Really? You tried and failed before. Have you learned something new?

 

I didn't "fail" you guys are just too closed minded. The fact is letting the EPA, FDA and federal government tell us what we can and can't eat, has lead to GMO products and many many medications which cause more serious illness than what they treat. People should have the power in their own lives and, people should also be liable for the bad they do. Under The system now, industries can buy their way out of any trouble! So I don't care what you Liberals think, if you dig a little deeper than the surface, you'd realize most of government doesn't protect you/us at all!

 

I could list many examples of environmental regulations successfully protecting us. It is you who is close-minded. Libertarians would put all the power in the greedy hands of the corporations.

 

It's now in the hands of corporations. Libertarianism puts power in the hands of the individual. Liberals want a quick fix, and it hasn't been working like that.

Where is the EPA when Nestle drains 15 ft of water from the Great Lakes every year, and only pay a hundred bucks?

Under Libertarian philosophy they are stealing property and natural resources and would be heavily fined, a put out of business in some cases. The problem with the current government is business get their way, and are accountable to no one if they have the money to bribe politicians.

 

When a Republican is in office, he too is blamed for not getting anything done. The fact of the matter is that nothing gets done despite which party is in office.

 

I don't support Republicans either. I support ideologies which I see best represent freedom. Smoking a joint after a hards days work?- You should have the freedom to do that. But corporations do not have the freedom to dump cancer causing carbon in the air. They would be liable for proterty damage, and liable to their customers by word of mouth on how they conduct business. I just mentioned Liberals because they typically support the EPA, when I see it for what it is: Legalized Bribery.

 

Obama supports weed.

 

No, he doesn't. He admitted to smoking it, it's still federally illegal.

 

They might be liable, but they will win in court anyway with their teams of high-priced lawyers and keep on polluting. We've already gone over how your idea doesn't work, but you keep saying it anyway, as if you live on a different planet.

 

Not exactly. Obama signed the "Monsanto protection Act" Which make it illegal to sue Monsanto, even if you get Cancer from their products. There was also a company storing some chemical on the Detroit river, and this cancer causing chemical would blow all in the water and to Canada. Those people who own property on the Great Lakes,own that property. Nestle is destroying their property by taking that water, and declining the value- The government now says Nestle can take wtvr they want for a mere 100$ a year!


The system now is nothing more than legalized government bribery/cooperation for the richest businesses, and that's also what's destroying our country. I'm sure the EPA has some good employees who care, but at the root, to me, it's another form of legalized bribery.

 

You are kidding, right?

You do know how many medical marijuana facilities and growers have been targeted by the feds with Obama in office, right?

What a joke.