I don't understand how people believe.

What about forgiveness and unconditional love?

 

What about them? I am down with that, based on circumstances. What have you got to say, can you make a point?

 

One of the problems I have in these discussions is the tendency to generalize about religion, God, believers, etc. When people ask "How could any intelligent person believe X"? they should first have a clear idea about what X the intelligent person believes in, and what that person's motives are for believing. First of all, it's important to distinguish "spirituality", "religion", and "belief in God". Spirituality is internal and personal--a sense of the sacred or "numinous". Is it possible to be a spiritual atheist? I'd say "Yes". Example: Carl Sagan. "Religion" is a social phenomenon--an organized system of doctrines, rituals and practices that provides a framework for expressing of spirituality. Organization has benefits in empowering and supporting individuals, but the price is always a "canned" spirituality in which certain modes of spiritual encounter can be closed off. God has many definitions, ranging from the Dude in the Sky to a force or even an abstraction. An influential Protestant theologian, Paul Tillich, defines God as "the Ground of Being"--in other words, a pure abstraction. Can there be religions without a god? Yes, and there are: Buddhism and Taoism.

When I label myself a Christian, I mean that I accept basic values and teachings that I associate with Jesus: non-judgemental unconditional love, especially for the dregs and losers of society. I'm attracted to these views as an alternative to those of secular society and many churchy folks as well, who measure the worth of people by their wealth, power, status, or physical attractiveness. By the way, my values are the opposite of the ones preached and/or practiced by lots of other folks who call themselves Christian. Did Jesus exist? The evidence isn't strong. I'm inclined to believe that He did, but it isn't important to me. Were those really his teachings? What about his divinity, the miracles, the Resurrection, etc.? I have the same attitude toward those as a lot of progressive mainline Protestant theologians, who view them as a system of myths and meataphors expressing underlying spiritual truths and values. Most Christians don't share these views, but there are plenty who do. And God? I'm persuaded by physicist Paul Davies that a Designer to the universe provides the most plausible explanation for it, but I wouldn't dismiss other theories as irrational. So am I stupid, or what?

 

why are you attracted to those views and not the latter....

 

Probably because of my temperment, upbringing, and personal experience. Also,because on the basis of my own experience and observations, the latter leads to injustice, conflict, insecurity,misery and nastiness. Having been the victim of playground bullying and high school social snobbery, I have pretty strong feelings on the subject. As a kid, my love affair with Jesus came from the relief his teachings provided from the meanness I encountered in "the world". I think that life works better for individuals and society if feelings of empathy and reciprocity are encouraged, and tribalsim,greed, materialism and cuthroat competition are discouraged.

I agree with many of the atheists on this forum that religion in the wrong form can be a crippling disease. When religion discourages critical thought, promotes distrust or hatred of others, encourages self-loathing and pathological guilt, or condones violence on behalf of the faith, it's a dangerous virus. I just don't agree religion has to be that way.

 

i agree that religion doesn't have to manifest itself as distrust or violence

but the fact that it has the capability to manifest itself as such makes me wonder why it can....thats all

 

I think you guys are confusing religion with people. People do stuff. Religion just is. Religion never killed or harmed anyone.

 

Right. And guns don't kill people. Only people kill people. C. Heston

 

I like this joke: If God wanted the Church to be perfect, it would not have been entrusted to humans.

 

Iv gone cross eyed with irony.

 

Your dad must have had firsthand experience that lead him to believe that God does exist. Reading your post, I doubt he's someone who just accepted the dogma that was handed to him without checking things out for himself.

Don't make the mistake I did when I was your age and think that all Christians just blindly believe in God because a priest told them to; many do because of what they've seen.

The question is, are our firsthand "experiences" valid, or are they projections of the subconscious programming we experience? Was the devil there first, or did we create him and let him lose into the matrix so people would behave?

East vs. West mind. That's the struggle that's hurting me so badly now but I have a hard time taking one or the other completely on faith. I hope and pray for clarity and truth, but each time I arrive at the so called truth, it's never so concrete that I can just accept it in good conscience.

Is one side right and the other delusional? It seems so unfair if that's true. Would a loving God design it so half the planet is to be sucked into satanic snares from birth, worshipping the devil in disguise with no way of knowing (as if they would believe a foreigner who tells them to convert any more than a Christian should believe a Muslim who's telling him or her the same)? But that's how it looks to me, I don't know how it looks to God, if he truly exists.

Maybe this is all just one big unsolvable riddle we've created to keep us busy for however long we're here.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc6U7_-BeGc&feature=related

 

I've seen intellegent people who believe in god and all that. The explanation is that they've been brainwashed, or they would probably say "they were brought up ..." The truth is religions like christianity are huge monstrous cults... only recently have the churches lost their absolute power, so they cant torture, murder, or imprisson people who go against them. I think the amount of agnostics and atheists in "christian countrys" is going to start increasing. I especially like how been discoveries made that christianity just ignores. Dinosaurs for example. Or radioactive dating. I mean, that disproves their whole genesis thing, and I'd say thats a good chunk of their bs.

 

As a card carrying Christian, born again no less, I get really frustrated at the extent to which the fundamentalists have persuaded everybody that your idea of Christianity is what Christianity is. I owe my faith to a life-changing religious experience based on reflection on Genesis. Do I believe that Genesis is literally true? Hell no. Neither did Saint Augustine, long before Darwin. Neither did Origen of Alexandria, a prominent theologian of the third century. Neither do such respected scientists as Francis Collins, head of the genome project and evangelical Christian; nor Kenneth Miller, the evolutionary biologist and devout Catholic who was the star witness against Intelligent Design in the Dover school board trial. Neither does the Pope for that matter. I think your "brainwashing" hypothesis shouldn't be dismissed out of hand; early childhood training has enormous influence that most people aren't even aware of. And there is a definite groupthink in any body of people, whether it's a church or a meeting of atheists. Religion performs important social and psychological functions that have nothing to do with whether or not it is true. Neither you nor I nor anybody else is immune from such influences. All we can do is try our best to be aware of them and to try to think as independently as we can.

 

in my opinion theres different stages people go through, and perhaps become stuck at.

Theres the people who beleive in god strongly, and never doubt there faith, then theres those who beleive, then doubt there faith and think there growing as a person by thinking in a "logical and intelligent" way. And then theres those who go through both these phases, and truely develop into themselves, by taking experience of themselves from both the former phases and developing a truely balanced opinion that is free from alterior motives. It doesnt matter if you beleive in god or not, it matters how you came to that conclusion, its not the knowledge, but the quest for knowledge, and if you do this in its purest sense, free from your past ignorance, you will find the peace of mind and understanding you were searching for, and realise that that is what you were searching for all along.
Im not revealing whether I beleive in god or not, because as ive explained above, it isnt relevant.

 

i have been an atheist for about a year. agnostic before that. and grew up catholic. my husband has been an atheist all his life. i find that people need religion because it makes them feel better knowing that some imaginary friend is there to catch them if they fall. i have quite a few friends who possess one belief or another. not many are atheist but do respect me and in turn i respect them. before i came to the conclusion that there could possibly be no god my husband talked to me about why it is hard for him to concieve the possibility that god exists. he also showed me some cool writings and documentaries from richard dawkins. then he told me douglas adams (one of my favourite authors) was an atheist. i was hooked. i feel happier actually.

 

we all formulate beleifs that serve us in some way, you state why people beleive in god, to make them feel better, and using phrases like "I was hooked" and "I feel happier actually" to justify your new belief sound just as shallow and self serving.
Try and look deeper, deeper than personal gain and even deeper than logic, and you will find the true answer's your looking for.

 

true. thanks ^_^

 

I feel ya on this one.

"Religion is for the mentally insane" <-- 100% true IMO.

But with that said, everyone has their own opinion and is entitled to it. I'm not going to like them any less... unless they try to force their religious belief's on me.