I don't hate the world anymore

Yes, you can change the world. At least what I view of as the world. That is the people in it. We are the ones who make the world what it is. We change the world by making choices that reflect the change we want to see around us.

If you want to see more equality and fairness, claim your personal responsibility and share the profits of whatever it is your company does, equally amongst those who are a part of making it happen. Your time isn't any more valuable then theirs is.

That's an example of changing the world through your choices.

Now, if what you refer to as the 'world' when you say you can't change it is something different then the people who are in it, then none of this may apply.

 

People aren't going to see "facts" the same way as you do. Your approach to such disagreements leaves no room for dignity and seems to be a route to angry retort to anyone not immediately acquiescing to your white knuckle grasp of "facts". Adopting for arguments sake the premise that you are 100% right all the time, there are more effective ways to get others to see your side of things and barring that there's great respect with walking away from an unsuccessful argument after bothering to offer a degree of dignity to the other side despite them not seeing things your way.

 

Well, the way other people may or may not see facts, is something totally beyond my control. Many people try to claim opinion is fact, about the same number of people who claim fact is opinion.

What I stated as a fact, was that he had said those things, shifting the blame. It is a FACT that he did say them.

As for the premise that I think I am 100% right all the time, why is it such a shock to people that if I don't feel sure about something, I am not going to argue for it. I realize that it can seem to be that I always think I am right, but I can't do anything about that, except to start arguing for things I am unsure of, and that just isn't going to happen.

Why must everyone post every little thought they have regardless of if they think it is right or not, just to prove to some people online that they don't think they are 100% right all the time?

 

You said:

This argument always amuses me... partly from that anyone would expect anyone else to believe it, and partly from the fact that a lot actually do believe it.

The majority of the world is living in poverty, precisely because of people exploiting them. That means profiting off of their labor without returning value for what they get.

Offering someone a choice of dying of starvation and watching their children die of starvation or working for a pittance in regards to the value of what they produce and then blaming them for accepting the pittance, is shifting the blame. Offer those same employees a choice in between working for a pittance, and working in a co-operative where they get an equal share of what they produce (note that is not an equal share of what everyone everywhere produces, it is a share of what they actually help produce).

That shouldn't be a hard concept for anyone to grasp. If you have 4 people who all do the exact same job, it may be easier to see that all should recieve and equal share then when those same four are doing different tasks, but the simple fact is that if the four of them are choosing to work together, and each of them is required for the final product, then they are equally responsible for that product and the value others place on it.

We all equally have 24 hours a day. As we all have equal amounts of time, the value of each is the same. It is only when you get people who take advantage of others by giving them less then an equal share of what they produce that this goes out the window.

You did read that I am paying employees that I should lay off, right?
Perhaps I did not make it clear. The seed business is not making a profit.

In my other businesses they are paid based on what they sell or produce. So they create and enjoy profits. While I take all the financial risk.

This is him saying that it isn't his fault that the world is the way it is, because he didn't create it.... That is shifting blame from him, who is keeping the system the way it is by using the labor of others and personally profiting off of it beyond his input at the cost of the others...

Did you see my last post before this?

I even admitted that based on your argument I am a cop out. That doe not mean I agree with your argument.

What have you done to change the world?

Yes, I am shifting blame. I am shifting it back onto everyone's shoulders who takes part in making these things happen, just as I am shifting the value of their participation in what they produce to an equal share.

It isn't 'just' your responsibility that the world is like this, but you have as much of a part in it as the ones you blame for making the choice you offer them.

Taking part in that system and not feeling ashamed of it is a personal choice, trying to say that being a part of it doesn't make you partly responsible for it, IS something to feel ashamed of...

At least, that's my opinion.

Well there is nothing wrong with a difference of opinion.

 

Discussion shouldn't always be about proving whether you are right or not. Naturally no one is going to go out of their way to show that they are wrong some of the time, but it is a matter of sharing ideas and opinions in a respectful environment. Because one doesn't agree with someone's opinions, ideas, or lifestyle, doesn't mean they should badger the person about it persistently, especially in a personal manner.

 

True and true. I try to choose wording that allows some dignity for those holding opposing views to what I may look at as irrefutable. Otherwise my words would tend to suggest I think someone not agreeing with me is stupid... whether or not I intend to say that.

Perhaps but it was OPINION that he intended to shift blame. There's moral judgment in you commenting on his intent.

Perhaps, but to an observer following what you have to say; the sense that you feel that others should look at what you post here as incontrovertible truth to which expressing difference is grounds for character assassination- is unshakable... at least to me.

Why must you bludgeon people with the premise that everything you post is 100% correct and above debate?

 

This is a really good thread to get this out in, as a lot of my anger towards the world, is based on this very issue.

I agree with what you just said almost 100%... What I don't agree with, is that in any way did I make this conversation a personal attack on anyone.

I also disagree that there is a way to have an honest conversation about any issue without it being personal, when it is about a persons choices.

 

How is it a moral judgment to say that someone saying, it isn't my fault, its someone else's is someone intending to shift the blame?

Where have I ever stated that what I post is incontrovertible truth or given that impression?

That is an honest question, I really don't understand how people keep getting this impression, but obviously they do, so please show me where it is that you see me doing this.

Once again, show me where I do this, because although I can't control how other people form their opinions of what I may or may not mean when I say something, I would at least like to understand why people do form this impression.

 

No you didn't, UA made the conversation personal, about himself. He stated what he does with his employees. Of course people can disagree with what he does, but you painted a negative picture of him personally.

Although this may have been theoretical, it was rather unnecessary and didn't further your point in any way.

 

I may have painted a negative picture, but it was a picture based on what he said.

About the second part, how was it unnecessary?

He had said they had a choice. I said they didn't. He explained why he thought they had a choice, I explained why I thought they didn't.

Wheres the problem?

 

There's no problem. It was just unnecessary.

You could have made the same point without stating that he is holding a gun to the heads of his employee's children, and then writing; "Shut up and take what I pay you, or you can go find another job. Oh, there aren't any other jobs? Awww, too bad for you... I guess if you want to feed your children, you are just going to have to accept what pittance I offer you from what I make off your efforts."

Your point didn't have to include a very negative fictional dialogue between UA and his employees. As Stinkfoot said (in regard to something else), this seemed more like character assassination than you actually trying to prove something. Which again, could have been just as easily stated without this comment.

 

Why should the reality of what is going on be hidden, especially from those who are causing it to happen?

I could have stated it in 1000 different ways, but it would have meant the exact same thing. Just because someone would rather not think about the end result of their choices, does not make it wrong for someone else to point it out.

If someone took my post to mean I thought he had that exact conversation with an employee, then yes, I can see it being viewed as an attempt at character assassination. However, it wasn't stated as such, and it wasnt meant as such.

It was meant as the reality of what it means when an employer says that their employees have a choice.

To claim it as anything else would ignore the fact that not only is a majority of the world living in poverty, but also the fact that even in the richest nations there are more unemployed people then there are jobs.

 

I understand what you're saying, I've understood what you've been saying the whole time, and on some points I have agreed. You were wondering why some people may get a negative impression by what you say, this is why. You sometimes put a very negative connotation on what people say in a way that affects their personal appearance.

I'm not meaning to dissect your behaviour, I'm just trying to answer your questions.

 

Hell, dissect away... I'll even help...

There have been times when I have jumped on people in an unwarranted fashion, and I have apologized for doing so.

However, the majority of the time, I am simply stating my opinion as everyone is supposed to be entitled to, and yet somehow, when I do so, people get offended.

Seriously stop and think about this... if someone expresses a negative opinion about (attacks) a whole group of people based on random factors of their birth (racism as an example), it's okay, because it's not a specific person that is being attacked. Hell, it's even encouraged as part of freedom of speech.

Yet if someone expresses an opinion about a specific person based on actions and words that person does or uses (the choices they make), it is considered wrong and discouraged.

Am I blunt, cynical, negative, tactless even assholish?

Sometimes, fuck yeah!

But you know what... this is who I am. I don't lie, I don't make up bullshit just to get others to like me, I don't express my opinion on things I haven't put a lot of thought into, I don't blow smoke up peoples ass, I don't hide behind anonymity to express myself, I don't stab people in the back, I offer advice and/or help when I can, even offer to share my very home...

And what do I keep hearing? I should change the way I do things to get along with others better...

Sometimes I actually do consider doing so... hell sometimes I even say I will (or at least try), but because this is who I actually am, and not some act put on to influence people and make friends, I always end up coming back to this.

I don't think I will ever understand why people who otherwise impress the hell out of me with their ability to think through an issue and see beyond the noise, get all hung up on the manner in which I speak, even while agreeing with the substance of it.

Why in hell is the appearance of something more important then the substance of it, especially here of all places?

 

Tom,you always make some good points in your posts,but you come off as hot-head and ready to jump on someone if disagreement arises. You don't see it ,but others do.The axiom"it's not what you say,but how you say it" is appropriate here,methinks. my 2 cents.

 

Only because the manner in which you say it is sometimes aggressive/instigating. Your opinion is almost always respected by people and there usually are many people who agree. However they may take issue with you because you may not always care to put it nicely.

That's just because most people here have a, "Live and let live" attitude.
You seem to be quite passionate about things that you feel are unjust and you word things the way you think they should be said. But many people feel that although someone does things one doesn't agree with, that person should still be treated with respect.

Many people here seem to like and respect you for your opinions. I personally enjoy your blunt honesty, when it isn't meant to disrespect or tear down any one person.

That's because that is who you are. Many people can not change who they are at a base level, nor should they unless they really are a terrible person (murderer, rapist, etc.) There's no reason for you to change yourself.

I believe people should be allowed to drink in the privacy of their own homes. Should they be allowed to drink in public in front of children, or while driving? No.
I agree with the substance, just not they way in which it can sometimes be used.

You often have really great points and intelligent, honest posts, however they can sometimes be judgemental. While people can agree with what you say, it could be worded a little more tactfully. It can't really be said any more simple than that.

 

Well imagine this, I am going to agree with you and disagree with you all at the same time...

Yes, I am a hothead ready to jump on certain people. No, it is not just if a disagreement arises...

When people take a conversation from being about ideas to personal attacks on me, hell yes I attack back... and no, that will never change... for any of you who say things like, just ignore it, or don't let them suck you in, or it isn't worth responding too... Tell me that when it is you being attacked, until then, thanks for the advice, it has been duly noted... or better yet, tell those who get offended by me, to put me on ignore.

Once again, just because when I choose to post things, it is in areas that I have a deep seated emotion about and have put a lot of thought into does not mean I 'always' do anything.. it means I post about things that I have a deep seated emotion about and think others may benefit from the thought process I went through.

A conversation, contrary to what a lot of people around here seem to like claiming is not about convincing the other participants to your way of thinking. It is about expressing your own thoughts on the subject. Whether or not you become convinced or agree of what I think, is totally irrelevant.. Whether or not you understand my point is NOT irrelevant.

There are many many conversations that I have had (some of the more 'nasty' ones), where I don't give a shit what they other person thinks because of the choices they have made clear they have already made. For anyone to think that means the conversation shouldn't happen, or can come to no good because neither party will ever agree, are ignoring the fact that this is a message board where many many more people read whats posted then who actually post here. There are also a lot of people who just don't post in the controversial threads, but they do read them.

If me stating my opinion (no matter what it is or how it is worded) convinces one person reading it to change their lives for the better, whether or not I or any of the other actual posters EVER know about it, I consider it a good thing...

Look at the things that I rant against, and tell me why in the world anyone would ever have an issue with them unless of course they were responsible for the things I was ranting against, in which case, I don't really care what they think about what I have to say.

You know what is really funny about this? Some of those who say they have issues with the way I go off on people, give me positive rep for doing so... when it isn't directed at them and they think nobody else will know seems they don't publicly do it.

 

I agree totally... it could be... but it isn't likely to happen.

Why should I put extra effort into not offending people whom I pretty much totally disagree with the way they choose to live their life? When I tell someone (as an example) that I think they are a total waste of flesh because of the opinions they express... I think it should be pretty clear I don't give a shit if they are offended or not... and if someone else is choosing to be offending vicariously through that person... well, that is their choice now isn't it?

I hate to break this to everyone, to spill what is apparently a well kept secret... but we don't have to get along and respect anyone, if they express opinions, and take actions that go against core ideals that you hold dear, why would you want to?

As an example... I will never care if an animal fucker is offended by me saying they are a sick fuck who should have a tree shoved up their ass... I totally 100% feel that deeply in my heart... The other animal fuckers of the world may choose to feel offended or not as they choose, because I dont give a shit what someone like that thinks about anything at all. Those who aren't animal fuckers, who are offended on their behalf because I am so mean to them... Perhaps you should look around you and find something more important to be offended by....

To get back to a common theme when this subject comes up... yes I am an angry person, yes, I am a hothead, and yes, if you disagree with certain things I say, (especially regarding abuse of innocents), I am most definately going to jump all over you... and I am not going to feel the slightest bit bad about it.

You know why I am so angry? Because of what WE (as in each of us) have allowed this world to come to, by granting respect and tact to those who by their own choices of abuse and the like have shown that they have no respect at all for us, humanity as a whole.

I am angry because I see what we could be if we wanted to be, and then I see the reality of what we are.

I am angry because people allow bullshit like blow-jobs, or useless public meetings, or whether or not bell bottoms or slim fit jeans are the best to distract them for noticing that as they argue those issues, we are killing, raping and destroying the very planet we depend on and those on it... namely, us.

I am angry because instead of protecting the innocent from the predators of the world, we say things like, oh even they (the predators) need to be respected...

I am angry because not enough of you are....

 

You're a passionate man,Tom and I'm not trying to patronize you--passion is an admirable quality and frankly I've never given bad rep to anyone. (except one dick-head). "Bout the only time I get my passion up is about right -wing politics. Carry on.

 

Oh, and that judgmental thing... Yes I am judgmental, so is anyone who has a brain that they use... You just made a judgment by calling me judgmental...

Saying someone isn't judgmental, is (in my opinion) saying they don't think, because thinking, requires a person to judge new facts as they come in, comparing them to the ones they already have, and judging them as valid (to them) or not...

Each time any of us meet a new person, either online or off, we start making juidgements about them, and continue to do so as long as we know them.