I don't hate the world anymore

Love- •a strong positive emotion of regard and affection; "his love for his work"; "children need a lot of love"
•any object of warm affection or devotion;

Evil- •morally objectionable behavior
•morally bad or wrong; "evil purposes"; "an evil influence"; "evil deeds"
•that which causes harm or destruction or misfortune;

Because you do not agree with me does not mean that I don't have an 'open mind' in this discussion. Perhaps if I agree'd only then you'd consider my mind open? I have taken everything you've written into consideration and responded in the way I saw fit. If I had a closed mind to the subject, it would not have gotten this far.

When I presented an idea with support you called it 'noise.'

It isn't fundamental to the discussion, however it would be nice if you could extend the same courtesy.

 

I also never said that everyone is good and deserves love. What I said was that just because people do bad things, that does not necessarily make them bad people.

 

You wish to extend love to everyone, including those who rape children... that is evil...

You are 100% correct, that is not what means you have a closed mind. The part that means you have a closed mind, is where you say;

No, you haven't... no matter what I say here, you will never wane in your belief that

And this is the other part where we totally disagree.

The moment you stated unequivocally that you would not change your belief, before the start of the conversation, it became necessary to assess you.

To make a judgment as to whether you are trying to have an honest conversation and just chose the wrong words, or if you are just here to counter what I say just on general principal.

The 'noise' is stuff that causes distraction from the issues at hand... in this case when someone tries to cry foul over someone connecting what they publicly claim to believe with the type of person they are.

Another example of noise is when someone tries to say someone else just ignored and dismissed something they presented as an idea, when in fact what the person did was disagree AND explain why;

Want to see another example of noise?

Someone claiming that they didn't say something and taking offense to someone saying they did...

...

I said, without the bolding;

Which you quoted and added the bolding and then replied with;

If I was right in that was where the confusion entered the picture, then I was also right in that you thought everyone deserved love.

Plus of course the fact that you quoted yourself saying what you claim you didn't say...

Now, in order to keep to my word in restrain my anger, I am done in this conversation, because this kind of noise, is the kind of noise that pisses me right off.

 

Well. Again I have to say you're right. I did say what I apparently thought I didn't say. However I'll say this and leave it there. I choose to live with love. You can choose hate. After all, we're just extensions of the same one thing. Love and hate are inherent and exist everywhere. I'll also say that though I can see how you'd lose your temper over me being somewhat confused, you also displayed no intention whatsoever of willing to accept my beliefs, at any rate. My desire to not change my belief that everyone has the potential to be good and that everyone deserves love is no cause for the dismissal off of ideas shared in the conversation. You expressed no desire to wane in your belief that bad people deserve hate and anger.

 

100% correct, although I would have desperately loved to hear your ideas and the reason for them.

Before you pissed me off by trying to take it from a discussion, to accusations of me lying.

 

Are you not then guilty of the same thing you accused me of? I am sorry for the failure to communicate effectively, though where the lack of comprehension lies is variable. I'm not sure that I accused you of lying, but if I did without good reason I apologize.

 

You really don't get it that ideas and beliefs are not the same thing do you?

Ideas are based on reason. You can state why you have them. When confronted with something that counters an idea, you can defend or change your own ideas based on what you learn.

A belief cannot be argued with, as you quite adequately demonstrated with the part I keep quoting from you. When someone states something, claiming it to be a belief, regardless of what they could learn, then there is no discussion to be had.

I did not do those things. I said I was unwilling to let your belief sway me, but clearly said your ideas could have, until you made it clear you would rather inject a lot of noise into the conversation rather then discuss your ideas and the reason you have them.

I also didn't express a "belief that bad people deserve hate and anger",

I expressed that idea and I explained why I had that idea.

If someone could offer me reasons that idea isn't right, I would be more then happy to consider changing my ideas.

 

This is clearly where the miscommunication happened. I was pushing a belief, not an idea. I apologize.

In light of this here is all I was trying to say; I hold the idea that people and their behaviours are separate. But people and their environments may not be. Take a person and put them in a violent environment and they become violent. Put a person in a loving environment and they love. I.E. Prison.

Imo bad people don't deserve our hate and anger because they aren't necessarily bad, just because their actions are bad. Good people do bad things. Bad behaviour doesn't necessarily make a person bad. If we love people and treat them with acceptance, they may re-imprint this as their new pattern of thinking and thus become loving people. The same way a murderer can be given love and turn his life around through any given religion. If we love, there is a chance bad people will learn from us and become good. If we react with anger and hate, it will only ever make them angry, sad, or more hateful. People aren't usually pushed to do good when they are forced by the hands of anger and hate. That's all I was trying say.

 

It doesn't matter if you call it an idea or a belief... the second part of your post, is what takes it from a belief to an idea.

If what you said was true (as in true/false, not truth/lie), then you would never hear about a person opening their heart and being fucked over, robbed and/or killed for doing so. Unfortunately, you hear about that type of thing way too often...

 

But we do hear of people who have done terrible things, and then repent in some way and turned their life over to a higher power (which is semantics), but the point being that they were a bad person with bad behaviour, who through hearing of a more loving way turned their life around. Surely this says that people are separable from their behaviour.

An alcoholic can be a terrible parent and have self-destructive behaviour. Then they may have an intervention and hear their families pleas of love and realise that their behaviour is wrong, whereas they may have thought it was right (their choice) before. At which point they choose to turn their life around and be a good parent, spouse, etc.

Some bad people have bad behaviour and do not change. Some bad people have bad behaviour but experience some sort of love, and then turn their behaviour good. Are they still that same old bad person. Imo no they aren't.

 

The self-destructive part has no place in this convo as what a person does to themself, is only of a concern to themselves...

As for the bad parent part, I will assume by that you mean they were an abusive one... and you know what... no matter how much they 'turn over a new leaf, or see the light, or come to god or whatever, it will NEVER change that fact that they destroyed their childs innocence and love... More importantly though... are you going to supply the child that is used to test to see if they are still abusive?

Do you love them that much that you would risk sacrificing your child innocence love and perhaps life to one?

More importantly, how do you reconcile doing that to your child and claiming to love your child?

Beyond all of this though, you didnt say that everyone who can repent (or whatever) deserves love, you said everyone does, that 'everyone' includes those who spit in your face and tell you that they can rape a child if they want to...

 

I meant neglectful, not abusive. It doesn't matter either way. I see your point and your question about using the child as a test subject kind of put a hole in that theory. I don't feeling like delving into how that situation would work.

If someone spits in my face it's for one of the following reasons;
-They hate me
-They're mentally unstable
-They're on some drug(s) that have impaired their judgement
-They're angry at me
-They're angry at something or someone that isn't me

Any of these reasons does not grant someone to be undeserving of love. If someone tells me they can rape a child, that in itself is not reason why they shouldn't be loved.
(I'd like to clear up the fact that throughout this conversation, when I've said or do say that someone should be loved, or they deserve love, I don't necessarily mean my love. I mean love from another in general)
If someone is in fact a child rapist, I'd think that they still deserve to be loved, but they do not deserve: freedom, privilege, tolerance, and a number of other things. If say for example a family member of mine raped a child, I would love that person until I died (granted it wasn't extremely heinous), though I may not want to see or speak to them ever again. One must remember that love isn't something that we have the right to give or withhold, love is everywhere at all times.

 

I don't have the right to withhold my love from someone who rapes kids?

Needless to say, we are in disagreement.

Those who act in a manner that is caring and loving towards me and those I love, deserve my caring and love in return.

Those who differ from me, but are not predators on innocence, deserve my tolerance.

Those who act in a manner that harms me or those I love or innocents in general (in no way meant to imply I'm an innocent), get a whole bunch of anger and hatred.

You want less anger and hatred in the world? Stop tolerating (or worse yet, loving) those who deserve anger and hate....

 

Fair enough. However we're assuming that we possess or harness love in the first place. The only reason that it exists in us is because we've accepted it or felt it at points throughout our lives. Aside from that it isn't like virginity, you can't really give or withhold it from others. We don't create it. It isn't restricted to people, let alone good people. We can feel it and share it. But we don't possess it in the sense that we create it and can give it away or not give it away.

I'd also like to address the fact that you seem to think I tolerate bad or deviant behaviour. I don't. I just think that people and their behaviour are two different things and therefore not everyone should be judged and crucified for their behaviour.

 

Back the WTF truck up....

You don't necessarily mean they deserve your love?

Yet you think you have the right to say that someone else should love them?

Do you really wish to leave this statement stand or would you like to take another shot at that?

 

Here's what I meant. I think that they deserve love. Their family may love them, and they deserve that even though they have done bad things. No one should be locked away without the love of their family, friends, priest etc. This is all I've ever meant when I say, "Everyone deserves to be loved."

 

This is just drifting off into... to be polite... an area of conversation that I don't see the point in participating.

If you wish to discuss philosophical ideas of what exists and doesn't exist, there are many around who will oblige you.

I will not.

 

What if they raped and/or killed everyone who ever tried to be close to them?

 

Theoretical but not philosophical.

As you said in the post above, this has tapered off. I am not a judge, nor anyone who should judge. I can't really say who in fact deserves love or doesn't. I can only give my opinion. I can't say at what point they should stop being loved. I can't come up with every theoretical outcome for whatever any given person has done. Thank you for the discussion, thank you for straightening out the kinks, and thank you for giving us both the opportunity to clear the air.

As for your question; "What if they raped and/or killed everyone who ever tried to be close to them?"

If someone did this I would consider them a complete write-off. I would think that they probably don't deserve love as they are more than clearly incapable of accepting it, understanding it, and they probably don't give a fuck whether people love them or not. So fuck them. Lost cause.

Thanks again. Goodnight.

 

:lurk5: