Humans are herbivores.

Discussion in 'Vegetarian' started by Apples+Oranjes, May 31, 2005.

  1. luvndrumn

    luvndrumn Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

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    Well, then if you don't believe anything but evidence, what qualifies, in your mind, as evidence? That makes you a rather hard sell.:confused: That notwithstanding, I found a
    link here and a link there for you to peruse if you are so inclined. I consider it evidence.:p It talks about the ages of the various stages in the evolution of man. This information is how I based my millions of years. It is a small, trivial thing and really not worthy of much more than a look if you wish it. And it does open up the opportunity for discussion on exactly what one considers "human". But that should be in another thread.;) True on the dinosaurs - 65 millions years, IIRC.
     
  2. Hikaru Zero

    Hikaru Zero Sylvan Paladin

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    True, true. I'm at the library right now, actually; I think I'll go check it out.

    The reason I didn't respond to that particular passage is because it is irrelevant. Yes, so the plant can "move" for the purpose of acquiring food. It can't move for any other purpose, so it is not free movement. It's only an environmental adaptation that allows it to capture and digest food.

    Regardless, the irrelevant part of it is because we are talking about whether or not plants have "life" and can experience existance, not whether or not they can move to get food. Even if it can move, that's not evidence that it is experiencing that movement. I will give you credit for this part: It does demonstrate that, minimally, there is a chemical awareness of the fly's presence. However, that doesn't validate sentience, because it appears to be an instinctive reaction as opposed to a conscious movement. If humans acted entirely on instinct and reaction alone, I wouldn't consider them sentient either. But that isn't the case. =P

    And, chemically, this happens for a reason similar to why plants grow towards light. Not because they are aware that they are growing towards light, water, or support (in this case the stick), but rather because they are essentially programmed to grow towards light, water, and support, in the same way that humans are programmed to become hungry when we need to eat food. It's an adaptation of the environment.

    Aye, but you could also use google to find a lot of articles and research about the fact that plants are NON-living, and do not experience their environment. ;)

    Just for the record, it's not the quantity of research or the opinion that I dispute, but rather, the validness of the research/opinion. The reason I believe plants are non-living and non-sentient is because I see more evidence that suggests that this is so, rather than the opposite.

    I do thank you though for suggesting that book to me, I'm going to go take a look at some of it now. Thanks. =)

    Cows and other currently domesticated animals existed way before we had "society," so yes, they would exist, wildly. Dogs might be called wolves, and cows might be called brahmin (I believe that's what they are called in India, where they roam the wild, no?), but they would still exist.

    Also, it's nice and beneficial that we guarantee animals' procreation, and I'm all in support of that, but we also exploit those animals that we assist in reproducing, and I don't like that idea at all. =(
     
  3. eleria

    eleria Member

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    I am very well aware, that there is proof and disproof to be found for all sorts of theories, when looking on the net.
    That doesn't mean though, that all the information you can find on the internet is bogus. It is up to you to search and find sources you trust and let aside others.
    This thread was started with a link to a site which I consider very biased and not very trustworthy and I remember you going "clap, clap, clap".
    You were asking me where the research I was refering to was to be found and were asking for evidence.
    I posted a couple of links which I think are trustworthy and recommended to you to search for further evidence if you are interested.
    Of course you don't have to search on the net, I am sure you will be able to find information in a library as well.
    Err, do you notice your own contradiction here?
    You say it's not about the "quantity" of research, but you believe plants are non-living because there is "more" evidence.
    Well...

    Btw when I went to school nobody ever questioned that plants are alive.
     
  4. Kharakov

    Kharakov ShadowSpawn

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    It's the ages old pimps vs. hos debate. I'm inclined to believe that a cow that does not want to be eaten is rebelling against the food chain. Of course, the cow could have good genetic stock that could be passed down through the generations if it was breed properly...

    For me, I welcome all vegetarians to continue to eat only vegetables. Maintain your peaceful ways. There will be a time when the only food around will be people, and herbivores taste a lot better than carnivores/ omnivores. You have your purpose, which is to provide sustenence for your intelectual superiors. I thank you for the time you spend perfecting your tasty bodies for my consumption, and hope you get joy from the fact that you will bring me joy with your tasty flesh.

    A vegetarian who kills a carnivore just to "protect" themselves from being eaten has done the exact same thing a carnivore does- ensured it's life expectancy at the expense of another, so I don't want to see any vegetarians rebelling against their consumers. Instead, give your flesh with love and dignity, for that is what you are made for. Eventually cow's will reach their buddha nature, wherein they will know that they are here to provide comforting sustenance to those who appreciate their gift.
     
  5. eleria

    eleria Member

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    Can you explain to me how a plant can be "programmed" to grow towards a stick and how the plant notice that the stick has moved, when it doesn't have some kind of senses?
     
  6. Hikaru Zero

    Hikaru Zero Sylvan Paladin

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    Aye, aye. I clap because it's a change that defends my stance with evidence instead of it just being another omnivore being a rabble-rouser. =P

    And I will check out those links. =)

    Well humans don't want to die either, but it happens all the time. I'm sure animals don't WANT to be in ANY food chain, which is why we should stop eating animals!

    *yawn*

    Man, sometimes I wish you'd come up with something more original Kharakov. =P I don't even have to yell at you for this because I know you don't care, and I know that you know that I don't care. =P

    Off the top of my head, no I cannot. But, I can explain how a plant is programmed to grow towards light and how the plant can notice when the direction of the light changes, without having any sort of eyes to percieve the light with. It's the way the plant grows. The side that gets light exposure grows just a little bit less than the side that doesn't, so the stalk grows towards the light.

    It wouldn't be the first time a plant grew a certain way without actually being aware of its conditions. ;)
     
  7. Mr MiGu

    Mr MiGu King of the Zombies

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    i dont understand how you can assume that a plant is not alive just because it acts upon its 'instinct'. is it also not possible that animals act only upon their instinct?

    and just because humans are not physically capable of catching animals and killing them without any tools does not mean they would be incapable of attaining meat. Ive seen studies that suggest that at one time humans were scavengers, much like that of vultures.

    And to the person who had the cat and suggested that all animals should have the same rights, i wonder whether or not you have had them spayed/neutrered? and if you dont think that they should be killing mice, why do you let it out of the house? isnt that suggesting that the cat having more freedom is more important to you than rodents possesing life?
     
  8. Apples+Oranjes

    Apples+Oranjes Bekkasaur

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    Side note: one my pet peeves are when people [omnivores] say, "PLANTS ARE ALIVE, YOU'RE KILLING A PLANT WHEN YOU PICK IT AND EAT IT"....

    Obviously, yes. But, I have to eat somehow, and if I need to make the choice between a plant an animal, I choose the plant. I'm not even going to get into my reasoning, because this thread went a whole lot farther than I expected it to when I wrote it...

    *sigh* When I came into this forum to bring out my ideas, I expected other vegetarians replies... I didn't mean for this to be a debate, and it's stressing me out at the moment. I can't make ends meet with omnivores in real life, so I'm not even going to try over the internet.

    To all the vegetarians who have backed the idea up, thank you, and I appreciate your thoughts and knowledge.

    Is anyone as sick of defending their beliefs/knowledge as I am?
     
  9. luvndrumn

    luvndrumn Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

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    Apples+Oranjes,
    With all respect, if you wanted approval only then perhaps you should become a Hipforums supporter. This entitles you to set up your own personal forum which you can then make private i.e. by invitation only. Then you can have a reasonable expectation that whoever posts in there will be in complete agreement with you. This isn't a slam, slap, or anything like that. These public fora are rife with point and counterpoint, some calm, some acrimonious. Tis the nature of this beast.;)
     
  10. goldmund

    goldmund Member

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    I see what you are saying; however, cows are not lions. My point is that many domesticated animals have little natural defense. Perhaps it is they that use us? Not on an individual level. I highly doubt that a cow, if it had a choice, would choose to live in captivity; but on a species level, one that exists almost as its own entity?
     
  11. goldmund

    goldmund Member

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    Speaking of cattle, wanna hear an odd senario? Here in Germany, you hardly see ANY COWS OUTSIDE AT ALL. Why? Because they are all locked up in barns where the space can be used more effeciently, their manure can be collected/composted/and used as fertilizer and/or for methane gas. Great for us, shitty for the cows. The government subsidizes farmers who keep their cows indoors.
     
  12. Clover

    Clover Member

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    Definitely yes! I swear, if I hear one more time the question "what's the point in being a vegetarian?" I'll have a nervous breakdown! hehe.:p
     
  13. Apples+Oranjes

    Apples+Oranjes Bekkasaur

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    I understand that, I just didn't really expect it.
    And, no offense taken...
    Most of what was posted in this thread isn't offensive, I'm just starting to get a headache from explaining myself over and over.

    Thanks for the advice, and I might do that but it's really not necessary, I can handle a good debate, I guess today I'm just not up for it.
     
  14. Apples+Oranjes

    Apples+Oranjes Bekkasaur

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    LOL, I know how you feel. It's not so much people asking me that bothers me, it's when people get really defensive about eating meat that bothers me.

    Most of what's said on here is an honest quest for knowledge...not for a fight; but in real life, I get so much shit for it, and I'm sick of it. I'm not sick of being veg of course, but I'm sick of when people ask me why I eat the way I do...and when I explain, they quickly get defensive and list off all these reasons why I shouldn't be or come up with some lame rebuttle like, "Jesus ate fish!", or "well, You're killing plants, what about that!" etc. It's like... if you don't want to actually hear why I'm veg, then don't ask!

    I'm sorry everyone, for being a brat today... My dad just got into a tizzy about this last night with me, and I'm feeling irritated about the subject at the moment. He's usually really good about me being veg, but at times, he just feels the need to attack me about it... without me even bringing anything up. Luckily, I'm moving out soon so I won't have to deal with his unwanted opinions 24/7 *sigh*
     
  15. luvndrumn

    luvndrumn Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

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    Sorry about that thing with your dad. If my daughter was to switch her diet and tell me about it (she's on her own now), I would want to know why just to hear her reasoning and see if it was sound (I wouldn't want her basing her decision on some line from a huckster). I certainly wouldn't critique her decision based on my wants and desires.

    Oh well, chin up!:)
     
  16. Clover

    Clover Member

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    *claps*

    My uncle stopped talking to me for 3 weeks when he found out I was vegetarian... Anyway, he's now talking to me again, I guess he finally understood that acting like a jerk wouldn't make me change my mind. So, I'm still a veggie and he has finally accepted it. :)
    Anyway... I know how annoying it can be when someone close to you acts like he/she didn't respect your values and decisions.
    Hope your father stops bothering you with this or any subject... ;)
     
  17. Spaceduck

    Spaceduck Member

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    WTFFFFF?

    *slaps forehead repeatedly*
    That's just unreal. Why are some people so offended by vegetarians? Anyhoo... I've said it before & I'll say it again: people who go veggie while living at home have my respect. I'm sure it's 10x harder. Bravo!
     
  18. Clover

    Clover Member

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    who knows... maybe they see their values threatened by ours... anyway, my uncle has always been known for being absolutely stubborn and irrational.:confused:

    hehe, don't make me blush!:&
     
  19. Apples+Oranjes

    Apples+Oranjes Bekkasaur

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    thanks everyone, for understanding.

    That's fucking crazy... that your uncle didn't talk to you for three weeks...
    Well, I'm glad it's alright now but ...shit. I'm speechless

    I mean, I get it, I go through stuff like that all the time, but it still wows me when people are so stiff about it.
     
  20. MikeE

    MikeE Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

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    The defining charactaristic between plants and animals is that plants have a cell wall while animals have a cell membrane. It is the standard biologists use when examining microscopic creatures. (Sorry, I don't know the technical difference between a cell membrane and a cell wall, I do recall that cell walls are rigid while membranes are flexible.) As I said, I have heard vegans debate about sponges, so I thought that the technical distinction should be mentioned.

    http://www.biologydaily.com/biology/Life#A_conventional_definition discusses how one can tell if an entity is alive.

    Plants are alive.
     

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