How To Stop The Alt-Right

6

LOL – that’s the point I’ve been making – it’s up there in for anyone to read – you make what seem to be absolutist statements and when I pull you up on it ONLY then do you admit you don’t support that absolutist statement but then go on to make another absolutist statement.

I mean hell man it’s very hard to debate with someone that doesn’t even realize what his posting.

As to this subject the thing is that statistically, logically and historically where and to whom a person is born will have the greatest impact on that person’s life.

 

6

Can a child choose to be born into advantage or disadvantage?

Is it responsible for being born into disadvantage?

Can it be praised for making the decision to be born into advantage?

And the thing is that many people are not in control of every happenstance in their lives.

People do not choose to have life changing accidents but they happen. Even a small illness in a society where healthcare has to be paid for can have a devastating effect of a person’s finances.

And other things are out of a individuals personal control. I mean a person might not have voted for a neoliberal agenda but they could be the one losing their job because neoliberal politicians got into power and brought in policies that hollow out industry and encourage outsourcing

There are many many things that are just out of a person’s personal control and anyone thinking the opposite is deluding themselves.

 

6

Weird way of thinking, are you saying you think that is what ‘lefties’ are saying that we live in a conspiratorial patriarchy, and whitey will always work against them?

That has the ring of conspiracy theory about it, I think it would be a good idea to begin looking outside of your current media box.

Thing is that as a leftie I do believe in trying to inspire people to achieve their greatest potential but also understand that some have more disadvantages than others and that political policies can have an impact on that.

As I’ve already pointed out the neo-liberal/free market policies of the last 30 odd years have had an adverse effect on many people’s lives from the hollowing out of industry and outsourcing the stagnating of many people’s incomes and the huge boost in inequality.

 

6

This is complex issue but I’ll try and explain it in simplistic terms –

Now as I’ve pointing out the time from the 1940’s to the 1970’s the dominant economic model was Keynesian based (although heavily adapted in the US).

That model championed full employment and a distributive system

From the 1970’s the neoliberal model began to take over and it isn’t about full employment (unemployment drives down wages) and championed ‘trickle down’ economics that very much favoured rewarding the already advantaged.

Also part of neoliberal orthodoxy was the promotion of economic globalization and the hollowing out of industrial manufacturing in favour of services, that contributed to a decline in manufacturing and a rise in imports.

Fall in top rate tax
1945 - 94%
1970 – 70%
1982 - 50%
1990 - 28%
2010 – 33%

Rise in top levels of pay
In the 1950’s CEO pay was 25-50 times that of an average worker that has risen to 300-500 times by 2007. A bigger gap than any other developed nation.

Trade deficit
1960 – Trade surplus of 3.5 billion
2008 – Trade deficit of 690 billion
(The last time the US posted a trade surplus was in 1975)


Decline in manufacturing

1965 - Manufacturing accounted for 53% of the US’s economy.
2004 – It accounted for 9%


*

Other things to look into and take into account – the rising costs of the Vietnam War (from the escalation 1961 to the running down in 1971) the First oil shock (1973 and 1979) and not to forget the bad decisions made at Bretton Wood by the American negotiators (see the Nixon Shock)

 

[SIZE=11pt]6[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]But the problem is the reason why such groups were formed was because people did and some still do judge others by their gender, sexual preference, or the colour of their skin and act on it by discriminating or harassing such people.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Thing is why shouldn’t they form such groups and why shouldn’t they support politicians that fit in with their goals?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Are you saying that you’d remove the right of these people to form such groups? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]OK let me get this straight if people are being discriminated against nothing should be done to help or stop that discrimination? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]I mean if you truly wanted an equal playing field wouldn’t this be about helping those that are disadvantaged or discriminated against to help them in gaining some semblance of an equality of opportunity? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]I’m still wondering what ‘special perks’ do you think straight white males are missing out of and therefore deserve to receive – again - as a specific group what do you think they specifically need help with? [/SIZE]

 

The main difference between what I said and what you said is that 80% of Muslims are in favor of some form of shariah law. Fundamental Muslims act according to their book and blow up buildings. Not only that but they are a present threat now.

 

Of course not. But it has what they do with the hand they are dealt. I would like to reuse my Clara Brown example from the previous page. The black woman who spent 56 years of her life as a slave working for nothing. Had her children bought and sold to the highest bidder. Who was emancipated at the age of 56, when she moved to Colorado to start a very successful laundromat business and owned several properties in Denver and elsewhere. This was all during a time that happened nearly a century before the civil rights and women's suffrage movement. She suffered oppression the likes of which nobody currently alive in my country has ever seen. And she made a super success story out of herself.

I agree with you that accidents, mishaps, and sudden circumstances can make drastic and sudden changes that aren't within our control. As the old saying goes, Shit Happens.

 

When you tell a young black person that society won't work in their favor because of all the systemic racism and oppression they will face everywhere they go will work against them, that robs that young black person of their agency to better themselves and learn from their own personal failures. If you tell a black person they did not get hired at the job because whitey is racist and the system is designed to keep them down; when the reality was they were less qualified than their non-black counterpart who got the job, that robs the black person of their agency and sets them up for failure.

When you tell a young girl who failed her math test because the marking criteria is sexist and geared for boys, when in fact she didn't study hard enough for the exam, that robs the young girl of her agency and sets herself up for failure.

These are just some examples of some ultimate far fringe left conspiracy theories of the patriarchy and whitey.

Well good we've found some common ground. I think a lot of work can be done to change the culture of the underclass to inspire motivation to better themselves. Culture is upstream from politics. Changing the culture will have a greater impact than changing policies.

 

It's a tough one, but I believe in the non aggression principle. And I don't believe anyone should be forced to bake a Nazi or a Gay wedding cake. If that's discriminatory, so be it.

If a business says they don't want to provide services for blacks, they should get the same amount of flack as a business that doesn't wanna serve whites.

Males in general face harsher jailing sentences than women for the same crimes. Women are far more likely to be awarded custody in divorce courts. To name a few.

Whites are more likely to be punished for hate crimes than anyone of color.
I don't think anyone in this video is going to get charged with a "hate" crime. But could you imagine the outrage if it was the other way around?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeHVwcOkmRo

 

Eye

Rags to riches stories are very rare, incredibly rare, but yes they do happen, but for the vast majority of people political policies have an impact on the possibilities of social advancement

[SIZE=11pt]Try - The Spirit Level: Why Equality is Better for Everyone Paperback – by Kate Pickett and Richard Wilkinson [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]There are always going to be outliers, antidotal or apocryphal ‘evidence’ that is often produced to muddy the waters to stop some seeing the wider and clearer picture [/SIZE]

But that is the point - Shit Happens at differing relative rates depending on advantage and disadvantage. Someone with advantages is more likely to weather a Shit Happening moment than one who is disadvantaged.

To one the same shit can be a minor inconvenience while to the other it is devastating.

 

[SIZE=11pt]Eye[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Again I really think you need to get out of your bunker – you are being fed a line and you seem to be swallowing it hook and sinker.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]As a leftie I try and be honest and realistic, I’m not going around telling black people that ‘whity’ is to blame for everything but I not going to say discrimination does not exist. I can point to Clara Brown as a good example but I’m not going to lie that the socio-economic system doesn’t need reform, to help with equality of opportunity and try and bring about the semblance of an equal playing field.[/SIZE]

 

[SIZE=11pt]Eye[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Thing is that as a leftie I do believe in trying to inspire people to achieve their greatest potential but also understand that some have more disadvantages than others and that political policies can have an impact on that. I mean if you truly wanted an equal playing field wouldn’t this be about helping those that are disadvantaged or discriminated against to help them in gaining some semblance of an equality of opportunity? [/SIZE]

Again I think you are being manipulated, your being taught to focus on rather minor ‘grudges’ so that you don’t look at the wider picture.

Have there been many places that didn’t want to provide services for white people as compared to those that have discriminated against black people?

 

Eye

I’m still wondering what ‘special perks’ do you think straight white males are missing out of and therefore deserve to receive – again - as a specific group what do you think they specifically need help with?

Are only white males been given harsher jailing sentences, statistically aren’t black males more likely to be given harsher jailing sentences than white males?

Prison sentences of black men were nearly 20% longer than those of white men for similar crimes in recent years, an analysis by the U.S. Sentencing Commission found. – Wall Street Journal

I believe it is the same with custody outcomes.

According to the FBI statistics, 66.4 percent of the 3,407 reported single-bias hate crimes that were racially motivated in 2013 targeted blacks.

I mean you could say –Black men are more likely to be punished for gang related crimes than white men.

So again - as a specific group what do you think white males specifically need help with?

 

When executions are considered, the statistics are even more telling. Prosecutors are far more likely to seek the death penalty in cases where the victim is white than in cases where the victim is African-American. African-African-Americans are disproportionately more likely to be sentenced to death than whites and executed than whites. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/documents/FactSheet.pdf
So why should there be any question that black lives matter?

 

Bingo! That"s what AltRight media is all about. Talented propagandists like Bannon and Yannopolous hire out their services to billionaires like the Mercers and the Koch brothers to stir the pot with constant agitprop, while diverting attention to the real problem: their clients. Breitbart is the FOX of marginal white guys: an anger factory using white male identity politics to attack minority and feminist identity politics.

 

Horatio Alger stories of self-made bootstrappers were staples of the Gilded Age. But they were myths then, and much more so now. For every rags-to-riches fluke, there are hundreds of thousands of folks whose destiny is pretty much sealed. The principle vehicles for working class advance were labor unions and they have pretty much been neutralized in the U.S.A. Affirmative action, for all its controversy, has the merit of allowing talented minorities to rise and become role models for others like them.
http://www.bachelorsdegreeonline.com/blog/2012/11-myths-about-horatio-alger-every-american-should-know/
https://letterpile.com/books/horatio-alger
http://ideas.time.com/2012/09/07/the-myth-of-bootstrapping/
I agree, it does no good to tell minorities that the deck is so stacked against them that they might as well give up. A culture of victimization is likely to be counterproductive. But I think it is necessary to consider reality in order to take constructive action moving forward.

 

Being a Nazi is voluntary--kinda like being a Democrat or a Republican or a Bernie supporter. Under current law, there's nothing illegal about refusing to serve any of those. Of course there could be economic repercussions for the business that try it. Belonging to a race or a gender is not a choice, and the LGBTQs tell us neither is their identity. Until the 1964 Civil Rights Act, it was not uncommon for hotels, motels, and restaurants to deny services to racial minorities. If the minorities traveled long distances, they'd have to find a place to sleep and relieve themselves in the bushes or hold it. And since by definition they were minorites, businessmen tended to cater to the perceived sensibilities of the majority clientele. As Balbus notes, there weren't and aren't many businesses, minority owned or otherwise, who deny services to the majority race. The Civil Rights Act told the businessmen they couldn't do that any more to racial minorities. How outrageous, the gub'ment telling people what they can't do! But I think that balancing the two interests, it was right to say that people who enter businesses catering to the public are no longer free to pick and choose what parts of the public to serve on racial grounds. LGBTQs are a special case. They haven't yet convinced the courts that they are a disadvantaged class entitled to comparable protection, although some local ordinances extend them that protection in many parts of the country. The latest conservative ploy in denying them rights is the claim that the consciences of businesses who discriminate on alleged religious grounds should be protected. I think that's a dangerous and untenable position. I don't think anyone should be forced to bake cakes for Nazi weddings (or perform at Trump inaugurals, Democrat dinners, etc.) but I think have bigot bakers who won't serve gays should face the legal consequences in places where there are any.

 

Yet you fall for the myths of the wage gap and white privilege hook line and sinker.

I use Clara Brown as an example, not to say that everyone and anyone can go from one extreme to the other, but to say that if Clara Brown can be successful in the world that existed back then, people who are struggling much worse than her are totally capable of success as well. I don't know about you, but anyone who works their way out of poverty into a modest self sustaining income is a success story to me. But when you hint that economic mobility is unlikely, and if you are poor you're likely to remain poor forever. Well I gotta say if someone is poor in a wealthy opportunity-rich country the entirety of their whole adult life, then maybe they just suck with personal finances. Do you know what often happens when a lower class person wins the lottery?

 

And I'm still wondering why you think straight white males don't deserve identity politics if it's made available to everyone else.

You're acting very jumpy. If you'd have read my words more carefully, you'd see I was referring to men in general (not racially specific). Comparing men and women together, the legal system is easier on women. Just like the education system. More women are going to college and more boys are being put on psychotropic drugs in largely disproportionate numbers.

I won't deny certain races and ethnicities still face selective disadvantages. But the fact is black people are disproportionately committing more crimes and are being incarcerated more. Bill Clinton's crime bill put way more black men in jail, which led to a huge increase in single mother black families.

Well no shit sherlock. That's because black people and other minorities rarely get charged with hate crimes when they criminally harm someone of a different race. It's why they tried to paint the brown George Zimmerman white, so they could induce more anti-white racism.

I posted a new thread about a black on white hate crime in the news that goes over this, I'm happy to have you join in the discussion right here: http://www.hipforums.com/forum/topic/479944-black-lives-matter-ties-up-and-tortures-disabled-man/

Apparently the Chicago PD and leftist pundits were trying to argue that it wasn't a hate crime, even though it was obviously a racially motivated attack and kidnapping of a mentally retarded white guy. These fuckers foster the idea that you can't be racist unless you're white.

I'm against the whole concept of hate crimes anyway. All crimes that revolve around one person physically harming another is a hate crime regardless of race.

 

What if the homophobic cake baker was a muslim instead of a christian? Should they get the same amount of heat from the media and legal consequences Sweet Cakes and Memories Pizza faced when they said they didn't want to host a gay wedding?

I ask because in situations like this, there are horrible journalists and LGBTQR people who just like to go bigot shopping by calling all these businesses to find which one is against gay marriage. And fight civil rights battles where there really isn't much there.