How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Actully.. I'm 100% sure that I WON'T go to heaven... because heaven doesn't exist...

 

God is punishing humans as a whole. human nature is wicked. so basically God made humans imperfect, and he is punishing us for it.

 

Sure, only because God the Father will enlighten you that you need God the Father (of which the Son is only a small but essential part (like all of Gods children-little but essential)).

In the end, many who seem the greatest will seem the least. Although Jesus loves you, and it is good to love Jesus, it is God the Father that you are to worship and love as your creator- Jesus is your brother, love him as you love yourself, Love God as God.

 

Well, God does have a sense of humor.

 

Jesus said:

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

We are to worship all parts of God as God. There is no part of God that is small. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one. Spirit is submissive to the Son, Son is submissive to the Father. They are still all equally God and to be worshipped as such.

 

objection. gods penis is small.

 

why else would he trick humans into disobeying him and punish them for it

 

Don't apologize for the questions. I truly want to help you find the truth. Jesus Christ is the Truth.

Sin has consequences. Sometimes, innocent people are hurt because of sin. E.g. A baby that is born with Aids. This baby didn't do anything wrong, yet it has Aids. God isn't punishing the baby, but the baby is still suffering because of the sins of it's mother. God hates sin. God hates seeing bad things happen to people. He sent His Son to deliever us from pain and suffering of sin. Some day soon He is even going to lift the curse from this world.

De 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

He visits sins upon them which "Hate me"

If you choose to love Him, you can break the curse.

As far as believer's go:

He has chosen NOT to deliever us right away because He is teaching us a lesson about the consequences of sin. God is eternal and He can see into eternity. He knows that the 100 years that we will live on this earth is nothing compared to how long eternity really is. We can't even understand eternity, but God can. He uses pain to mold us into the kind of people that we aught to be alot of times. Kids get spankings to mold them into the kind of people that they aught to be. God doesn't like it, but it is necessary if we are to be "conformed to the image of Christ"

You said that accepting responsibility for your own sins is nobel. I don't believe that that is nobel, it would be a tradgity. It is MORE nobel and wise to accept what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross and live for Him and serve Him. God doesn't want you to go to hell, besides you can't please God without having faith in Him. I believe that not being a Christian when you know the truth is cowardly because, it is harder to stand up for God then it is to mix in with the crowd. I believe that it takes much more of a man to stand up and live for Jesus Christ then it does to do your own thing. This is about the Love and Mercy of God. It is way not worth it to go to hell. You really need mercy. Eternity is never ending. The fire and torcher and misery are eternal. I am not trying to be a smart allick but go and turn your stove burner on and stick your hand in for 10 seconds. I bet you can't. Imagine being forced in there to feel the pain for all eternity but never dying or able to leave. We must trust in Jesus Christ.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

If you wish to please almighty, all knowing God, you must do it His way. We must have faith in Him and His way. If you want to impress Him, LIVE FOR HIM. That's what I want to do with my life man. I sense that you could really make a difference for God. If you want to be NOBEL stand up and live for Jesus Christ. That is nobility. Every read Foxes book of martyrs? Those men were hereos. They were burned to death, beaten, torchered and many of them refused to stop preaching in the midst of their own death. Some sang praises unto God while being burnt at the steak. That is NOBILITY. Standing up for what's right. I believe that you could be a great man of God if you would simply give Jesus Christ a chance. What do you say man? Pray and ask Him in.
Pray that prayer in the "How to get to heaven", original part of this post.

 

Not sure if that is also plagiarized, but it was a good response. Thanks.

One final question:

Let's say I don't believe in God. But I do everything else completely morally to improve this world and I fight sin off by not submitting to it and by helping teach good morals to the people (even if I don't teach belief in God). If you are guilty of any of the Ten Commandments, you are sent to hell. One of those Commandments is believing in God.

You mean to say that, if I am one of the most virtuous people alive, even more virtuous than most Christians, just because I don't have enough proof to believe in God and the Bible, I am automatically cast into Hell?

They say you can repent, confess your sins, and still be saved; would I still be saved if I repented just before death? What if, in the next world, I'm standing before St. Peter (that is his name, the gatekeeper, correct?), and I am shown that God exists, I repent then?

My minister DID answer that question; he said that, no matter what, I didn't live my life in God's name, and I would still be sent to Hell.

You mean to tell me that God's denial of my entrance into Heaven is over something as simple as sin that is allowed to happen to us for education? The only thing even stopping me from believing is lack of proof that he exists. If it were proven ... through divine intervention or perhaps even scientifically, I'd be an instant convert, and I already live life as morally as I do now. If sin is allowed to happen to us in order to teach us good morals (which many Christians don't even attain through the teaching of sin) ... I've already learned my lesson and become virtuous; why would I still be denied at the Gates of Heaven?

And ... isn't there a better way to teach us morality than to threaten us with eternal damnation if we don't get good morals (and then not even provide any proof that you ever made the threat, or even that you exist)? How can you expect people to put any trust in you and your lessons of morality, with that? It looks like those lessons of morality aren't even working anymore; is that actually a product of SIN, or just a product of God not doing enough to teach us morality, like ... proving that he exists in a time of scientific mushrooming?

 

That would be great. However, it's even better for you to see God's hand in everything in your life today, instead of waiting until you die. It's a gift that some people do not understand and therefore reject. However, God is patient and will work with you throughout your life to teach you- even if this means that you wait until the afterlife to learn these things. You have the chance to learn about God now, which is the gift- however if you don't recognize the gift for what it truly is, it is not going to be held against you. It's just that God knows that it is far better for you to know that God is doing all these things for you in your life- and God knows your life is better with knowledge of God (which means that your life is worse without this knowledge- you look back at a spiritual hell (lack of knowledge of God) once you realise how good your life is with knowledge of God.) I don't know if everyone (every creation) goes through this, but I am fully aware of how much more my life sucks without seeing God's hand in it- I look back at the Good times that I had and now see God's hand in them- God has turned hell (my life before seeing God's hand in everything) into heaven (seeing God's hand in everything).

 

Here's a thought:
We know that, given the incredible number of recorded galaxies, each containing billions upon billions of star systems, many of which have planets capable of sustaining life, so...

Will beings on other planets where there is life deal have to deal with the Apocalypse? How are they prepared to deal with the "end times" which evangelical Christians believe is so close? What if they have no concept of Jesus (having never even seen a Bible)? What will happen to them? Or does God only have plans for the beings on this planet? I'm very curious. What do you think?

 

Hikaru Zero,

Not sure if that is also plagiarized, but it was a good response. Thanks.

The only information which did not originate from me is the information on prophecy. I do believe that I kept the author's name there but if I didn't, sorry.

One final question:

Let's say I don't believe in God. But I do everything else completely morally to improve this world and I fight sin off by not submitting to it and by helping teach good morals to the people (even if I don't teach belief in God). If you are guilty of any of the Ten Commandments, you are sent to hell. One of those Commandments is believing in God.

No you will not go to heaven because you would not have known the Son of God. You must know Him personally by asking Him into your heart. Look at this verse:

Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He said "I never knew you" You must have a relationship with Him. I have a personal one on one relationship with God. He communicates with me and I with Him. I don't hear Him speak audibly but He speaks to my heart. I feel His presence in my life and He directs me. I wouldn't trade it for all of the money in the world. I meant it. That hole in your heart is because you were created to serve God and there is a hole that isn't filled in your life. Only God can fill it. His Holy Spirit will dwell in that hole and you will feel peace like you have never felt before in your life. Yes you will have problems, but God will be there with you to help you through them.

You mean to say that, if I am one of the most virtuous people alive, even more virtuous than most Christians, just because I don't have enough proof to believe in God and the Bible, I am automatically cast into Hell?

Yes because you can't be good enough to go to heaven. Only Jesus Christ was good enough and we must trust in His righteousness to get there. God says that you have enough proof:

Ps 19:1 ¶ <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.>> The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another {their conscience...: or, the conscience witnessing with them} {the mean...: or, between themselves}
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Here is a true story:

Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

They say you can repent, confess your sins, and still be saved; would I still be saved if I repented just before death? What if, in the next world, I'm standing before St. Peter (that is his name, the gatekeeper, correct?), and I am shown that God exists, I repent then?

First of all, yes you can be saved on your death bed but why take that chance? What if you die without warning? Also, no peter is NOT the gatekeeper. Jesus Christ is the gatekeeper. He must know you before you get there in order for you to get in. Once you die, it is too late to repent. You must repent first. You wouldn't even get to the gate, the devil would immediately drag your helpless soul into hell, while laugh at you and mocking you, saying that you could have been saved, but now it's too late. I actually know a lady that had this experience but had a miracle where she woke up after she had been pronounced dead and she was dead for a half hour. She had broken her neck. She had never heard about Jesus Christ. She said that she was dead, but felt exactly like she was alive. She could feel the air in her face. She could feel everything. She was alert. She was on a mountain and this devil was walking toward her and started laughing at her and said "You didn't get saved and now your going to hell" she said that he was very beautiful, but as he got closer to her, he grew uglier and uglier. He finally pushed her off the mountain and she was falling into hell. She cried God save me, and she woke up in her body screaming. She has since asked Jesus Christ to be her Savior. Her neck was broken into powder. They had taken x rays of her neck BEFORE she died. Then after she woke up they took more. The bones were healed up so that she could live. The doctor was an atheist, but he said "now I believe in God". This stuff is real. I know this lady personally and I know that she is wouldn't lie about it.

My minister DID answer that question; he said that, no matter what, I didn't live my life in God's name, and I would still be sent to Hell.

He is right. You must be born again. Stop playing with fire. Accept Christ as your Savior man. What on earth are you waiting for?

You mean to tell me that God's denial of my entrance into Heaven is over something as simple as sin that is allowed to happen to us for education? The only thing even stopping me from believing is lack of proof that he exists. If it were proven ... through divine intervention or perhaps even scientifically, I'd be an instant convert, and I already live life as morally as I do now. If sin is allowed to happen to us in order to teach us good morals (which many Christians don't even attain through the teaching of sin) ... I've already learned my lesson and become virtuous; why would I still be denied at the Gates of Heaven?

Isn't the fact that Jesus lived, Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead, Jesus did miracles, Jesus rose people from the dead proof that He is God? Who else can do that? Of all of the people who hated Jesus Christ back then, not one person has ever refuted these things. Jesus Christ fulfilled hundreds of prophecies in the old testiment and prophecied more. I also offered you much proof that the bible was indeed God's word, but you didn't seem interested in it. Did you read "What Jesus did for me" in the Christianity forum? Read it. It is my testimony. It is what Jesus Christ Himself did for me.

And ... isn't there a better way to teach us morality than to threaten us with eternal damnation if we don't get good morals (and then not even provide any proof that you ever made the threat, or even that you exist)? How can you expect people to put any trust in you and your lessons of morality, with that? It looks like those lessons of morality aren't even working anymore; is that actually a product of SIN, or just a product of God not doing enough to teach us morality, like ... proving that he exists in a time of scientific mushrooming?[/QUOTE]

God does expect us to have faith in Him. I won't lie. However, the more you submit your life to Him, the more He will reveal of Himself to you. You must be a Christian first for this to happen. God has literally come into my room and come face to face with me and spoken to me in my mind. I didn't see Him, but He was there so real that it is undeniable to me. I was wide awake. God wants us to trust Him. He is teaching us to trust Him. You are capable of doing that, just do it. Ask Him to help you and He will. He wants to save you but you must be willing to reach out to Him and give Him a Chance. That is what faith is. You take the first step of doing what He asks, even if you don't completely understand, and let Him do the rest. He WILL prove Himself to be God. He will NOT fail you. I have known him since I was 5 and I am now 33. He is still teaching me things that blow my mind. Actually the more you submit to Him, the more He will blow your mind. When He spoke to me, He blew my mind man. I will never forget it. He has done many more things that I don't have time to speak of now. You just need to give GOD a chance.

 

Snowcrash, wow . Might I suggest as well: 'The Jesus Incident' series by Frank Herbert and Bill Ransom ..... How to get to Ship when you die.

 

FrodoBaggins, you're last resonse is why I absolutely despise religious people. Thought I'd get that out there.

No1nozme, good question. I doubt any religious person would have a good response to that. Then they start rambling about how we're the only planet and the universe is really just a mirage.

And when it comes to religious plagarism, there is none. It's all bullshit anyways. Who cares if it's plagarized.

Frodo, accept it. If there really is a hell, you're going to it anyways. Just because you can say "Jolly Jesus Jumps Jiggly Jupiter" 14 times without messing up while jacking off to the bible dosnt make you God's special gift to this world. You're not. You're narrow minded views make you an insult to human exsistance.

-----
And if there's really is a hell, I'm pretty sure I just screwed myself backwards and I'll be joining you down there.

 

Well, there are also many books out there (including so-called holy books) that do refute Jesus' divinity. I won't deny that he lived, or that he did great things (or at least great things happend around him), but if I have one book that says he is divine, and another that says he isn't ... how am I supposed to believe one over the other?

And as far as prophecies go ... look at Nostradamus. There's a guy who has also prophecized hundreds of things that have come true; and he isn't divine in any way. Besides, Jesus isn't prophecizing things in today's world, only things that are spoken of in the Bible.

I was totally a Christian until he (and his disciples at my church) let me down. More was accomplished when I took matters into my own hands, then when I got down on my knees and earnestly pleaded for God to help. I do come from a Christian family that is full of problems and hate for eachother. They don't even know as much about their faith as I do; I find myself giving verses from the Bible to them from my memory over the phone!

I can't tell you how many times I pleaded with God to quell the fighting and hate in my family; now, I don't have to deal with it anymore, but it's not because of any miracle. It's because I distanced myself from my family. They still fight, all the time.

He's not teaching us anything; he's letting us be punished for sins we didn't commit. I've already learned the lessons that the Bible says he is supposedly teaching, yet ... nothing good has come of it.

I've asked him to help, even as an earnest, devout Christian, and He turned a blind eye. I gave him a chance; I gave him more than a chance. I used to turn to him EVERY time I had a problem that I couldn't solve, and humbly requested that he help. And this was back when I was young, innocent, and naive, when I actually believed in it. When I didn't even know what atheism was; I only knew God. And still ... nothing.

 

Hikaru, I use to be in the same situation you were. Life was one bad situation after another. I prayed the, "sinners prayer", over and over and was still bogged down. I came to a point where I felt that either God did not exist or I simply was not on his favorable list. I felt this way from grade school up until two years ago. In two thousand and three, I was baptized in his name and filled with his spirit. Things immediately began to change in my life. Situations that I had dealt with at the time of simply saying the prayer had begun to change. Illnesses that I had suffered from began to lift their hold on me. Medication I had taken was no longer needed. Problems that I had faced for years were no longer problems.

Because one can quote scripture off the top of their head, does not mean that they know Christ. From fifth grade through eighth, I attended a mainstream Christian school and was taught their philosophy on scripture. That is merely what it is.... Philosophy. Many people from the same school, who prayed the same prayers, suffered through similar situations and never received the healing they could have. I grew up in a religious family and many of my extended family members can be described using the description of yours. They attend church, they know scripture, yet they do not know God. They have not experienced him because they are still caught up in the false prophecy that their churches teach.

If you lived closer, I would invite you to join my church and have the experience I have had. However, it would be possible for me to find a church in your area if you'd like.

 

Hikaru Zero

Well, there are also many books out there (including so-called holy books) that do refute Jesus' divinity. I won't deny that he lived, or that he did great things (or at least great things happend around him), but if I have one book that says he is divine, and another that says he isn't ... how am I supposed to believe one over the other?

None of those false books were written until hundreds of years or even over a thousand years after His death. Believe the bible because it has proven it's self true in every other matter including the gospel.

And as far as prophecies go ... look at Nostradamus. There's a guy who has also prophecized hundreds of things that have come true; and he isn't divine in any way. Besides, Jesus isn't prophecizing things in today's world, only things that are spoken of in the Bible.

Nostradamus has made tons of predictions which have failed. Actually, He is right a very small percentage of the time. It's just that, when He is right about something, it receives alot of attention. Nostradamus predicted that a world war would break out in 1999 and be well underway by the year 2000. He claimed that it was the battle of armagedden. Nostradamus got alot of His predictions and ideas from the bible. Nostradamus was definately wrong about it. None of the bible prophecies has ever failed.

Yes there are plenty of prophecies which pertain to today's world. I tried to show some to you, but you didn't want to hear them. If you would like, I can show you.



I was totally a Christian until he (and his disciples at my church) let me down. More was accomplished when I took matters into my own hands, then when I got down on my knees and earnestly pleaded for God to help. I do come from a Christian family that is full of problems and hate for eachother. They don't even know as much about their faith as I do; I find myself giving verses from the Bible to them from my memory over the phone!

I can't tell you how many times I pleaded with God to quell the fighting and hate in my family; now, I don't have to deal with it anymore, but it's not because of any miracle. It's because I distanced myself from my family. They still fight, all the time.

God didn't let you down, although maybe some men at your church did. I truly believe that if a family will, from their hearts, seek and serve God the biblical way, they will greatly reduce it's problems.

You said that you pleaded with God to quell the fighting. God doesn't always take our problems away, if fact He rarely does. This is because He is teaching something by it. He DOES, however, help us through the problem if we lean on Him in faith.

I am not close with MY family. I had alot of problems in my family when I was younger. My parents have never been there for me. I know it hurts. The problem is that you cannot blame God for it. It's not His fault what your family does. If they aren't serving God the way they should, there will be problems rest assured.

A few years ago, I was on the verge of divorcing my wife. I was out of church and not living for the Lord. When I went back to church, and applied God's word to my life from my heart, My marriage got better and better. It is really great now thanks be to the Lord. On a different note, I tried to get my friend to come to church with me and serve the Lord with me. He said he didn't want to. His wife started going to bars and guess what happened about a month ago? She cheated on him and left him. They didn't want to serve God HIS way, they wanted what THEY wanted. Now he has lost his wife. Do it God's way. Don't expect God to do what YOU want, do what GOD wants YOU to do.


He's not teaching us anything; he's letting us be punished for sins we didn't commit. I've already learned the lessons that the Bible says he is supposedly teaching, yet ... nothing good has come of it.

I've asked him to help, even as an earnest, devout Christian, and He turned a blind eye. I gave him a chance; I gave him more than a chance. I used to turn to him EVERY time I had a problem that I couldn't solve, and humbly requested that he help. And this was back when I was young, innocent, and naive, when I actually believed in it. When I didn't even know what atheism was; I only knew God. And still ... nothing.

First of all yes you may suffer for the sins of others at times. Sin doesn't just affect the sinner, it affects those who are around them. You haven't learned everything that God has to teach you, or else you would not be alive today. I am 33 and I still have tons to learn friend. My life has been no picnic.

Like I said, God rarely takes the problem away. He helps us through them. He is teaching us valuable lessons. He loves us, it's just that some of the lessons which we need to learn are painful. Don't let that stop you from serving Him. You will regret it man. I got away from God for many years and my life was utter hell. I am back with Him now and Lord willing, I will never stop serving Him. I am finally at peace with God and it's wonderful.

Keep seeking Him. He will reveal Himself to you, IN HIS TIME.

I was 30 years old before God revealed Himself to me. He actually came into my room and spoke to me man. I mean it with all of my heart.
Read this verse:

Ps 40:1 ¶ <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.>> I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry. {I waited...: Heb. In waiting I waited}
2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings. {an...: Heb. a pit of noise}
3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.

Keep praying, don't give up on the Lord. He is really there with you. He really hears you. He really cares for you as much as anyone else in this world. He has a plan for your life. He is in charge, not you. Trust Him. Submit to what He wants you to do. If you will, you will find peace. Sometimes bad will happen but God will be there with you and it won't matter.

XFRODOBAGGINSX

Epiphany,

Baptism does NOT save. It is clear in the scripture that it is NOT how we are saved. The reason why you began to understand is that you were in disobedience to Christ when you weren't baptized. He does command us to be baptized after we are saved. It just isn't part of our salvation, it is a public profession of faith. Faith in what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross is what saves us.

You say that you were filled with the holy Spirit after baptism? We recieve the Holy Spirit after we recieve what Christ did for us, before baptism.

Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
(KJV)

These people recieved the Holy Ghost BEFORE they were baptized. The reason is that they were already saved. There is only one baptism of Christ.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all

Are you putting me down for using scripture to back up my arguements? The bible is what we are to live by. I will go by what the bible says, not what you say. It says one baptism.

 

Baptism alone does not save, and I have never claimed that once during any of my threads. Salvation consists of two parts. Repentance and both baptisms of water and spirit. A puzzle is not complete when missing pieces. Neither is salvation.

What I was taught in the mainstream Christian faith was simply by the confession of my sins, that I was saved. Baptism was optional and the holy spirit was rarely mentioned. (Both the Lutheran and Catholic churches were even farther off than that)

If you read the rest of the scripture involving the statement, you will notice that the apostles were questioning why these men had not yet been baptized.

Anyone can receive the Holy Spirit when they desire it. I personally did not receive Christ's spirit until after I was baptized. Others have been praying at the altar (as the apostles did in Acts 2 when they received the Spirit) and received it before they had been baptized. I did not say one had to baptized before they received the holy spirit. I did, however, state the you must possess the holy spirit to be saved and THAT is biblical ( I reiterate John 3:5 over and over again). Also, the evidence of the holy spirit, speaking in tongues, is biblical as well. The branch of christianity that you represent denies almost the entire book of Acts by denying the use of tongues. Since you used Acts 10:47 for your rebuttle, you will notice that in verses 45 & 46 is says this:
"The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God."

I find it quite amusing that you use this particular scripture, while you so animately deny that speaking in tongues is of Christ, when it clearly states that the believers who were filled with the Holy Spirit had the evidence of this by speaking in tongues in the verses listed before. You cannot pick and choose verses that comply with your faith. It's either all or nothing.

Yes, one baptism (of both water and spirit) that must also take place for salvation

Baptism, according Jesus Christ's own mouth, is part of the plan of salvation. I am putting down mainstream Christianity and it's scriptural interpretation that lacks any influence of the Holy Spirit. Jesus commanded that we are to believe in him and be baptized by both water baptism and spirit baptism.

This is the plan of salvation that is given in the Bible:

I have also stated at the end of that thread:

Hence, this is what the word says.

 

What I was taught in the mainstream Christian faith was simply by the confession of my sins, that I was saved. Baptism was optional and the holy spirit was rarely mentioned. (Both the Lutheran and Catholic churches were even farther off than that)

You were taught correctly. The Baptism is an act of obedience, not part of salvation but a public profession of faith.

If you read the rest of the scripture involving the statement, you will notice that the apostles were questioning why these men had not yet been baptized.

Your right, they were saying that these men needed to be baptized because they were clearly already saved. We cannot possess the Holy Spirit and not be saved.

We are sealed by it, meaning it cannot be broken.

After we believed we were sealed with the Holy Spirit, not after we were baptized.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The Holy Spirit identifies us as Christ's Children:

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

As many as are led of the Spirit, not those who are baptized:

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

He has sealed us and His Spirit is the "earnest" which means "down payment"

2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

This verse shows that we MUST possess the holy Spirit:

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Anyone can receive the Holy Spirit when they desire it.

Yes by:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

It says after we believe. Not by baptism.

I personally did not receive Christ's spirit until after I was baptized.

Are you trying to say that baptism saved you? That's not what the bible says.

Others have been praying at the altar (as the apostles did in Acts 2 when they received the Spirit) and received it before they had been baptized. I did not say one had to baptized before they received the holy spirit.

Then you just made my arguement. You aren't saved by baptism. You cannot possess the Holy Spirit without being saved.

I did, however, state the you must possess the holy spirit to be saved and THAT is biblical ( I reiterate John 3:5 over and over again). Also, the evidence of the holy spirit, speaking in tongues, is biblical as well.

You just made my point. If you can possess the Holy Spirit before you are baptized, clearly it is not baptism which saves. It is trust and accepting what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross to pay for your sins. Is it possible that you had not done that until the moment just before you were baptized?

The branch of christianity that you represent denies almost the entire book of Acts by denying the use of tongues.

Not true. We believe every word of Acts. We just don't believe that toungues are for today.

1Co 13:8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. {fail: Gr. vanish away}

Tongues, they shall cease. When shall they cease?

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Back then they prophecied in part because they didn't have the completed scripture. Now we do.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. {done away: Gr. vanish away}

That which is perfect is come. The word of God is complete. The propheceings shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. {thought: or,
Toungues and prophecies are childish things.

Since you used Acts 10:47 for your rebuttle, you will notice that in verses 45 & 46 is says this:
"The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God."

At that time they did speak in toungues. Also it wasn't the gibberish that they speak today.

Ac 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. {was...: Gr. voice was made confounded: or, troubled in mind}

1Co 14:6 ¶ Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? {sounds: or, tunes}
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. {easy...: Gr. significant}
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. {of spiritual gifts: Gr. of spirits}
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Why do churches like yours do that which is contrary to scripture?

I find it quite amusing that you use this particular scripture, while you so animately deny that speaking in tongues is of Christ, when it clearly states that the believers who were filled with the Holy Spirit had the evidence of this by speaking in tongues in the verses listed before. You cannot pick and choose verses that comply with your faith. It's either all or nothing.

They did speak in toungues at that time, that time is over.

Yes, one baptism (of both water and spirit) that must also take place for salvation

The water is the word of God.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

The verse that you are referring to is this one:

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. {again: or, from above}

Remember He is talking about a physical and Spiritual birth. Water (Physical birth) Spirit (Spritual birth) Look How Jesus explained the meaning "that which is born of flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The mother's womb contains water thus the physical birth, that which is born of Spirit is Spirit thus the Spritual birth.
He is talking about two different births. Physical and Spiritual.

Baptism, according Jesus Christ's own mouth, is part of the plan of salvation. I am putting down mainstream Christianity and it's scriptural interpretation that lacks any influence of the Holy Spirit. Jesus commanded that we are to believe in him and be baptized by both water baptism and spirit baptism.

Jesus DID command us to be baptized by water, not for Salvation, but because of Salvation.

We are also Saved unto good works, not by good works:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. {ordained: or, prepared}
(KJV)

We are saved unto good works means that we do good works BECAUSE we are already saved, not in order to be saved.

This is the plan of salvation that is given in the Bible:

No it is not.


[/list]I have also stated at the end of that thread:

Hence, this is what the word says.

No it isn't.

1Co 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech}
(KJV)

 

Acts 8 - "When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit."


That scripture states exactly what I have said myself about not receiving the Spirit until after baptism.

What I find amusing is that if you actually took the time to read my Salvation thread, (link located at the bottom of my signature), you will see that I have already listed these verses and the importance of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." (notice the, "shall be")



I personally did not receive Christ's spirit until after I was baptized.

That is exactly what the verse above just said!



Those whom I know personally:

a. Received the Holy Spirit after baptism

b. Received the Holy Spirit during baptism

c. Received the Holy Spirit before baptism

Again, if you took the time to read my salvation post, I clearly state that the Holy Spirit can come upon a believer at any time.

"Or do you know that all of those who were baptized into Jesus Christ, were baptized into his death" (Acts 6:3)



Romans 6:4: "We were therefore buried with him through baptism."

Romans 6:5: "Because anyone who has died has been free from sin."

If we must be baptized, to be baptized into his death, then when we are baptized, we die to sin. Acts 6 clearly stated that.

You can believe that he died for your sins on the cross, but until you are baptized, you are not baptized into his death.

Mark 16:16 says you are wrong.

I had confessed my sins in fifth grade after breaking away from the Catholic church. Even though I mourned and prayed and confessed them several times, I did not receive the Holy Spirit until February of 2004, after I was baptized on September 26th of 2003. No one, in the entirety of the Christian school that I attended, possess the Holy Spirit (remember, when the Apostles were filled, they were all on one accord). They simply walk around believing that because they prayed a prayer, they are saved. None of their chains have been broken.

If one confesses of their sin, yet is never baptism, nor filled with the Spirit, they do not have salvation. You are claiming in your posts that all they must do is believe. By the scriptures I have stated, this disproves the mainstream theory.

Many people that I know have also been to the cross and repented. Until the initial act of baptism and the infilling of the Holy Spirit took place, no chains were broken in my life, nor theirs. When a person is saved, chains should be broken. If chains remained until these acts took place, then they should clearly prove that baptism and the infilling of the holy spirit are essential to salvation.

That argument that you and many others use is taking scripture out of context.. "When that which is perfect comes." That which is perfect shall come again. When it does, then shall tongues cease, then shall prophecy no longer exsist. Jesus Christ is coming back. This is called, "The second coming." When Christ walks the earth again during his second reign, then shall these things cease to exist. Obviously, when Christ reigns on earth, no longer will we need prophecy nor tongues because we shall have direct contact with him.

"With strange lips and foreign tongues".... This is still being spoken today. I am sorry, but when I speak in my tongue, I am not speaking gibberish. I received the Holy Spirit through prayer (just as the apostles) and spoke in other tongues (just as the apostles). This is all Biblical. (Which again, I have pointed out in the link)