How To Argue For Gun Control.

I couldn't respond to every point you made in your last post. The site wouldn't let me. However, I still stand by my claim that those who do not want to take away rights from other people but still think they are superior are wrobg and when the subject comes up it should be pointed out that they're wrong, however they may be fine people otherwise. This whole argument was based on the hypothetical that President Trump said some racists are fine people. He didn't said that and this is way off topic. I'll respond to you when you post something relevant to the topic at hand.

 

Mac

LOL I notice it is ‘respond’ not - address the outstanding criticisms - or answer the questions – you will respond as you always do by repeating the same flawed statements over and over and over and over again.

As I’ve explained to be able to best get through to those that are opposed to gun control I think we need to understand just why those people have that stance, so it is germane to understand their thinking in a wider sense.

For me one of the bedrocks of people’s rights is a belief in equality, to see others as equal, to be seen as of equal worth as fellow human beings.

Racism undermines that, if you think a group in your society are inferior you are unlikely to care, sympathise or help them if they do suffer from discrimination, hardship or even the loss of their civil rights or life.

Let’s go back to the hypothetical ‘fine’ Auschwitz guard he might have thought that killing Jews was a good idea long before he was given the chance to gas them, was he a ‘fine’ person when he wanted to do it but hadn’t been given the chance and then not fine when he got to do what he wanted?

But also what about those that didn’t do the actual murders but didn’t really care if they were done?

I mean gun owners like to say they would protect their fellow citizens from ‘tyranny’ but racism undermines that also -think about the thousands of black people murdered by the KKK and other racists why didn’t the decent and good white people of those areas protect the black people being abused, they had access to guns, they had votes, they filled juries, they could have done a lot to stop what was happening, why didn’t they?

Many black people in the US today are dying due in large part to the easy availability of guns in American society. But many of those that oppose gun control that could help that situation seem not to care or sympathise with what is going on or with those deaths.

Why do you think that is?

 

Since this became more or lees a catch all for anything gun related, I decided to post some news. National reciprocity passed house. Hopefully it'll pass senate.

 

Mac

LOL - I'm sure I'm not the only one that noticed you still are not addressing the many outstanding criticisms of your stance.

 

I explicitly said that I'll address your post when you get back on topic. Racism is not on topic. Therefore, I didn't respond to it.

 

There is a town out west, can't remember where now, that was on the news one night. Most everyone there carries a sidearm, legally. There is less crime there than anywhere in the United States. It's simple, if somebody thinks they will get shot or possibly die, crime is not as likely to cross their minds.

 

I don't have my Social Problems textbook right now, but I wish I did. It describes how different crime is for rural and urban areas. Urban areas are typically plagued with crime, whereas rural areas are more close-knit and have lower crime rates. There are demographics for poverty that play into that as well. But, and that's a big but, not all crime is tied to poverty either. I really wishing I had that book because I'm probably getting half of the facts twisted.

The long and the short is that it doesn't pay to have guns around. You're more likely to shoot yourself, someone you know, etc. It's loosely correlated to positive outcomes at its best. There are tons of statistics that explain gun deaths per capita and the gun laws for that state etc. It isn't hard to do the math. And people who point to ethnicity are wrong.

 

That's why I took a handgun course with a local sheriff. Cost $120., plus you bring your own ammo (300 rounds). Lasts 5 hours, learned a hell of a lot.
Just my opinion, but if you've been where I have and experienced what I have, you would learn and carry too. All I'm gonna say.

 

Mac

LOL – yes of course you could address all the outstanding criticism…but…well… it’s just…well….you know….

The outstanding criticisms are of your gun stance I only went on to the general attitudes that many gun owners seem to have (social Darwinist tendencies, neo-liberal economic thinking etc) that often seem to have a connection to why such people feel they need guns - because you constantly refused to address the many, many other outstanding criticisms.

As to the argument I set out earlier about the problem of race and your assertion that citizen gun owners would be the guarantors against suppression it still seems valid –

And what about the thousands of black people murdered by the KKK and other racists why didn’t the decent and good white people of those areas protect the black people being abused, they had access to guns, they had votes, they filled juries, they could have done a lot to stop what was happening, why didn’t they?

Many black people in the US today are dying due in large part to the easy availability of guns in American society. But many of those that oppose gun control that could help that situation seem not to care or sympathise with what is going on or with those deaths.

Why do you think that is?

 

Magick

Are you talking about Kennesaw - it’s usually the one cited by those opposed to prudent gun control – if so we have already covered that a few times and specifically in one thread back in 2009 – the thread was plagued by the same problems that every other gun thread has been – the inability of the opponents of gun control to address the criticism of their position

This was the post I ended it with -

Ok

Well the consensus seems to be that the thread should be closed.

Well putting aside the data that there seem to have been 5 murder/manslaughter victims in Kennesaw between 2000-2005 which would negate the headline of the OP
Uniform Crime Reports of Kennesaw Polic and Index from 1985 to 2005

The thing of interest to me was the seeming complete acceptance that guns were at the root of the town’s lower crime rate.

Anyone that has studied crime quickly realises it is a complex subject with no one and easily installed solution and no one or easy to identify cause.

And many in the pro-gun camp will even admit this, the problem I have is that they don’t seem willing or able to discuss the alternatives but are very loud and persistent in pushing the gun as a means of tackling the symptoms of crime.

My question that still remains unanswered is – why are they seemingly so unwilling or unable to discuss the wider issues?

I hope one day to find out.

*

I will not go into it here as I’m unsure if you are talking about Kennesaw but I’m very happy to go back into it if you wish.

 

Magick

But wouldn’t you want to try and lesson the possibility of guns falling into the hands of the criminal and irresponsible?

Oh I’d wish people would read the thread – this is just another variation on the fear tactic which basically runs – the society in which you live is so dangerous and so bad that the ONLY thing to do is get a gun – but shouldn’t the question be – why do I think my society the one I live in is so dangerous and bad – getting a gun is not going to tackle the causes and may even make the symptoms worse if that gun falls into the hands of a criminal or irresponsible person.

Again could you read the thread so we don’t have to repeat ourselves and then address any of the outstanding criticisms of the anti-gun control lobby.

 

If you want to continue this discussion then make a thread on it. This is about gun control, not racism. I'm not one who uses the report button often, but if you continue to be off topic then you leave me no chioce.

 

Mac

Could you please have the common curtesy to read what I post –

First - I’d really like to have a discussion on gun control but you REFUSE to address any of the outstanding criticisms of your anti-gun control stance.

Second – the earlier argument still seems valid in the context of your saying we should not have gun control because citizen gun owners need to be the guarantors against suppression

And what about the thousands of black people murdered by the KKK and other racists why didn’t the decent and good white people of those areas protect the black people being abused, they had access to guns, they had votes, they filled juries, they could have done a lot to stop what was happening, why didn’t they?

Many black people in the US today are dying due in large part to the easy availability of guns in American society. But many of those that oppose gun control that could help that situation seem not to care or sympathise with what is going on or with those deaths.

Why do you think that is?

 

There's a new firearm coming out and it demostrates the obsoleteness of the ATF and NFA items as far as short barreled rifles.

 

So what?

This still doesn't address the many outstanding criticisms of your whole anti-gun control stance

It doesn't address the many outstanding criticism of your social and economic views (that seem to underpin your anti-gun control stance)

So again i ask so what?

Can you please stop posting crap and actually begin debating honestly

 

I have been the whole time. If you want to start a fresh then give an argument that is on topic to the thread and we'll continue from there.

 

Mac

Do you really believe you are debating honestly LOL – even with all the evasion and briush offs that are in the public record I mean hell people just have to read the thread to see your dishonesty – I know you are counting on people not doing so (it’s a long thread) but come on have you no shame, no honour, or is lying just so natural for you?

And calling you a liar is not an insult I so sorry to say it is just a fact (backed up by the thread).

But as I have explained a number of times already – we have covered all aspects of your anti-gun control stance and are all waiting for you to address the many, many outstanding criticism so we can move on, we don’t want to go back to us repeating the criticisms and you evading them that took up so much of the thread (repeat, evade, repeat, evade, repeat evade) I think everyone (other than you it seems) found it very boring.

So I thought we might try and examine the mind-set and attitudes you have that seem to underpin you anti-gun control stance, but you once again seem to have fallen into the same dishonest ways of evasion.

Ho hum, I’m disappointed but not surprised.

Come on man address the outstanding criticism brought up in the thread and we can continue from there.

 

I will as soon as you bring up a topic. What specifically do you want to talk about? We've covered many subjects on many pages over many days.