How To Argue For Gun Control.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Maccabee, Jul 27, 2016.

  1. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator

    [SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]Number of Gun related Deaths in the US[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]2014 - 33,599[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]Number of gun related homicides in the US[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]2014 - 10,945[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]Number of Combat deaths of US troops in wars [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]American Civil War – 212,938 that’s 53,234 per year[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]WWII [/SIZE]- 291,557 that’s about 73,000 per year

    [SIZE=12pt]WWI - 53,402 that’s in one year [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]Vietnam War - 47,000 that is over 20 years but the largest death rate in one year was in 1968 at 16,899[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Korean War - 33,746 works out at 11,248 per year [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]It’s like the US is involved in a war - [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]but - [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]the thing to remember is that the wars above ended – the gun related deaths go on year on year [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]Number of gun related deaths[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]2014: 33,599
    2013: 33,636
    2012: 33,563
    2011: 32,351
    2010: 31,672
    2009: 31,347
    2008: 31,593
    2007: 31,224
    2006: 30,896
    2005: 30,694
    2004: 29,569
    2003: 30,136
    2002: 30,242
    2001: 29,573
    2000: 28,663
    1999: 28,874[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]Gun related homicides[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]2014: 10,945
    2013: 11,208
    2012: 11,622
    2011: 11,068
    2010: 11,078
    2009: 11,493
    2008: 12,179
    2007: 12,632
    2006: 12,791
    2005: 12,352
    2004: 11,624
    2003: 11,920
    2002: 11,829
    2001: 11,348
    2000: 10,801
    1999: 10,828[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
     
  2. Maccabee

    Maccabee Well-Known Member

    Japan has a higher suicide rate than us and they have very strict gun control.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/reading-between-the-headlines/201302/the-gun-suicide-myth

    As to you point about people should lock guns up, how are you going to enforce that? Also if its to prevent on the spot suicides the decision making runs about 5 minutes or so. Plenty of time to access a safe.
     
  3. Maccabee

    Maccabee Well-Known Member

    The former, as this 30 minute video and the sources in the description shows.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8hyQDQPEsrs
     
  4. Maccabee

    Maccabee Well-Known Member

    Let me specify. Most of our murder rates are gang related. We have a gang problem not a gun problem. Mexico is a prime example. They have strict gun control yet their gangs are armed with RPGs. How on earth did they got a hold of those?

    Japan has a higher suicide rate than us and they have strict gun control. Also firearm accidents are decreasing.

    According to your own sources mentioned above Switzerland has gun deaths LOWER than England.
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. Maccabee

    Maccabee Well-Known Member

    Ok?


    I can't find a bill but I can find politicians for the repel of the second.

    https://foac-pac.org/Yes-Hillary-Wants-To-Get-Rid-Of-The-Second-Amendment/News-Item/4752


    Still we held on.


    That's the definition of an infringement of my rights. Plus how is me owning a certain weapon making you unsafe? Is owning a Lamborghini infringing or endangering your rights?


    I believe its given above.


    So assault weapon bans and mag restrictions are uneffective.


    And this reimburse my statement.

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2014/10/11/report-92-percent-of-mass-shootings-since-2009-occured-in-gun-free-zones/

    I haven't seen any crimes committed with a machine gun lately. They were regulated in 1934.

    Source. You are speculating.

    "And yet OKC, and Boston happened. And there never was a much of a problem with full autos."
    So we should allow all weapons to be owned by everyone.[/quote]

    Here some sources.

    http://m.naturalnews.com/news/047378_murder_sprees_armed_citizens_FBI_report.html#ixzz3euhrMWKK

    http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcfullau.html
     
  6. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed and Confused Staff Member

    From your source:
    “The Supreme Court is wrong on the Second Amendment,” ~ Hillary Clinton

    She was referring to assault weapons.
    It is not endangering my rights it is endangering my safety. The same for traffic laws.

    You have not provided proof that every time a gun is present a mass shooting has been stopped.
    Just because a weapon has stopped a shooting that does not mean that the presence of a weapon will stop all mass shootings.
    Just as because we can't stop all mass shootings that doesn't mean we can't work to make if harder for them to be committed.


    This doesn't mean the areas were targeted because they were gun free zones.

    Your first source is an interpretation of an FBI report, the report never stated what the title implies.
    The second tells us that out of 250,000 properly registered machine guns only one has been used in a crime since 1934 and that crime was committed by a police officer.
    Sounds like the law works pretty well to me.
     
    1 person likes this.
  7. ElEyeJaw

    ElEyeJaw Banned

    The United States is bigger and more populated than most other countries are, so it's silly to bring up the murder rates of much smaller countries, might as well assume an apple and an orange are the same type of fruit. Brazil has the highest murder rate in the world and most of the people there do not own firearms.
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. ElEyeJaw

    ElEyeJaw Banned

    gang bangers and cartels never get automatic weapons?
     
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  9. ElEyeJaw

    ElEyeJaw Banned

    guns do not cause suicides, sucicidal people are the cause of suicides. Might as wel call for more restrictions on tall cliffs and high rise buildings, because it's always possible for someone to get up there and jump off. I highly doubt you've ever used a firearm to begin with, as far as why I think I need a gun to guarantee my safety, would you rather me attempt to disarm someone who has a gun, if they broke into my house, or use a gun against them to protect myself? The cops are not always reliable
     
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  10. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

    And cars too. Ban those cars! More people die in car accidents every day that people die from gunshots in suburbia. Ban the cars! Ban the trucks! And ban those bloody toasters too!! Keep 'em off the shelves and outta the bathtubs!
     
    1 person likes this.
  11. Maccabee

    Maccabee Well-Known Member

    Source?

    How is me owning a certain type of weapon endangers your safety? Couldn't I make the same argument for Lamborghinis? After all they're low (hard to see) and fast.

    I will provide a link in the next post however every mass shooting was stopped by a gun. Either the gun man committed suicide or a good guy (either police or private citizen) stopped it by either presenting firearms or actually shooting him.

    I never claimed that originally and its not true. Every mass shooting was stopped by a gun.

    The way we make them harder to commit is to harden the potential targets by allowing armed citizens. How many mass shootings have you heard took place at a police station, gun store, or show?

    The theater shooter did and that wasn't my point. I never claimed that shooters choose their targets soley on whether its a gun free zone or not however gun free zones allow such psychos to be more successful in their deeds.
    I couldn't find the stats before the ban but I did found out that the crime rate wasn't all that high.

    https://www.nraila.org/articles/19990729/fully-automatic-firearms
     
  12. Maccabee

    Maccabee Well-Known Member

  13. You strike me as a problem. Someone who is advocating something they don't understand. You refuse to see two sides of the coin. You're very one sided. There ARE problems. How do we deal with it? Put restrictions around owning guns. It's simple. The second amendment is designed to enable protection. Not this sort of enthusiast/propagandized position it seems you are trying to represent.
     
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  14. Maccabee

    Maccabee Well-Known Member

    What restrictions would deter crime?
     
  15. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator

    Mac



    Well as explained on other occasions that doesn’t seem to be the case when this is looked at –

    So, do we have a gang problem or a gun problem? Data collected by the National Gang Center, the government agency responsible for cataloging gang violence, makes clear that it’s the latter. There were 1,824 gang-related killings in 2011. This total includes deaths by means other than a gun. The Bureau of Justice Statistics finds this number to be even lower, identifying a little more than 1,000 gang-related homicides in 2008. In comparison, there were 11,101 homicides and 19,766 suicides committed with firearms in 2011.

    According to the Federal Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention (OJJDP), the number of gangs and gang members has been on the rise for some time now, increasing by more than one-third in the past decade. Between 2010 and 2011, for example, there was a 3 percent increase in the number of gangs, but an 8 percent decrease in gang-related homicides. If gang violence was truly driving the gun homicide rate, we should not see gang membership and gun homicide rates moving in opposite directions.

    The most recent Centers for Disease Control study on this subject lends further credence to our claim. It examined five cities that met the criterion for having a high prevalence of gang homicides: Los Angeles, California; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; Long Beach, California; Oakland, California; and Newark, New Jersey. In these cities, a total of 856 gang and 2,077 non-gang homicides were identified and included in the analyses. So, even when examining cities with the largest gang problems, gang homicides only accounted for 29 percent of the total for the period under consideration (2003-2008). For the nation as a whole it would be much smaller.

    The 80 percent of gang-related gun homicides figure purporting to support Loesch’s claim, then, is not only false, but off by nearly a factor of five. The direct opposite is necessarily true: more than 80 percent of gun homicides are non-gang related. While gang violence is still a serious problem that needs to be addressed, it is disingenuous to assert that the vast majority of our gun problem (even excluding suicides) is caused by gangs.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/evan-defilippis/do-we-have-a-gang-problem_b_5071639.html
    *
    Comparisons between similar large cities also belie the argument that there is something uniquely violent about America’s urban poor. London has gang violence, drugs and recent riots that make Ferguson and Baltimore look tranquil, yet the Metropolitan police estimate criminals have access to barely 100 guns in a city only slightly smaller than New York. Cities like Glasgow and Liverpool can be shockingly violent places but victims of knife attacks and beatings tend to survive.
    It may be true that the link between guns and a culture of violence goes both ways, but that’s hardly a reason not to try tackle both at the same time.

    [SIZE=11pt]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/20/charleston-south-carolina-shooting-gun-control-reform-myths[/SIZE]
     
  16. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator

    Mac



    No - did you read the stats –

    Firearm-related deaths rate per 100,000 population.
    England and Wales – 0.22
    Switzerland - 3.04
    Homicides by any method per 100.000
    England and Wales - 1.03
    Switzerland 0.57
    Gun related homicides per 100,000
    England and Wales: 0.06
    Switzerland 0.16

    *
    Switzerland is actually second among wealthy countries in terms of annual gun deaths (0.77 per 100,000 of population in one recent smurvey, versus 2.97 in the US and just 0.07 in England and Wales) but has barely half as many guns per 100 people (45.7 versus 88.8 in the US).

    ut even this comparison gets weaker if you look at the way the Swiss keep their guns, which stems from a tradition of military service that has been considerably tightened over the years. One US study by the National Institutes of Health points out that both Switzerland and Israel (another alleged exception to the rule touted as proof that guns don’t kill) actually limit firearm ownership considerably and require permit renewal one to four times annually.

    Those are just the kind of gun control measures, in fact, that second-amendment fans in the US claim wouldn’t make any difference to gun violence.
     
  17. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator

    Jaw


    [/QUOTE]

    Do you know why is set out as per 100,000? Also if you compare say population density per km the US has low density

    US - 35
    UK – 269
    France – 122
    Germany - 234
    Switzerland – 210



    I grew up in the countryside where there where many guns and I used to be a member of a gun club.



    So you are frightened someone is going to break into your house and try and kill you?

    Wouldn’t it be better to tackle the cause of your fear than have a gun and remain frightened?
     
  18. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator

    sul



    This has been covered multiple times and the compassion just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny

    [SIZE=11pt]To repeat – [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]As to road accidents well modern societies makes a big effort to limit them that’s why there are so many rules and regulations attached to car use and road use - to try and minimize the risks. And car safety has become a selling point for car manufactures who think up new was to try and keep the motorist safe – there are already cars in production that could not rear-end the car in front because proximity detectors would automatically engage the brakes before it could happen. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]Guns are not cars, cars are designed and built as vehicles - guns were built and designed to kill and maim, [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]*[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]There are certain problems associated with private car ownership and a number of regulations have grown up to tackle those concerns.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]People have to have a driving licence, and they only get a driving licence if they have passed a driving test. There are bars on people with a medical problem that may cause them to lose control of a vehicle (e.g. epileptics) or otherwise be of danger to other road users or pedestrians (sight defects). We remove licences from those that we deem unfit to hold one (e.g. drunk drivers). People have to have a tax disc and current insurance and driving without is illegal.[/SIZE]


    [SIZE=11pt]Then there are the rules of the road, which side of the road to drive. How to turn left or right, how to conduct at traffic lights or crossing points. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]The car manufacturer also has a number of regulations to make sure the car is safe and a user has to have a yearly certificate of road worthiness to make sure it is still safe and driving without one is illegal. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]I could go on but I think you get the idea. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]To me gun ownership has its own concerns and so needs appropriate regulation to address those concerns. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]*[/SIZE]
    OK let’s take the things that we have been using to try and reduce harm from having a lot of automobiles in a society and impose them on gun ownership?

    All gun owners would need to pass a test of competence to get a gun licence and have a current licence.

    All guns would need to be registered and any theft or resale reported and logged.

    Insurance would be needed and be paid up and valid.

    Accidents or misuse (e.g. having a gun while intoxicated) could result in penalty points, increased insurance payments or loss of licence.

    All guns would be needed to be inspected once a year for the licence to be renewed.


    Cars kill - So do ladders (47 deaths) baths (9) and lightening (1) – based on the UK statistics of accidental deaths 2010 – now in 2011 the number of gun related homicides in England and Wales was 39 so more people were killed by ladders than murdered with guns, but the thing is that the deaths due to ladders -as with virtually all those involving cars - were accidents not murder. And neither ladders nor cars are specifically designed to inflict death and injury - guns are.
     
  19. pensfan13

    pensfan13 Senior Member

    Why is suicide even mentioned. Are you really saying that I shouldn't be allowed to own a gun because some emo kid that doesn't want to live anyway is slightly less likely to actually pull off the act.
     
  20. I'm not sure we're communicating here. You are not getting through to me. That's what you need to know. I don't like the rhetoric of this entire thread! I don't want to participate, and you should know that you're coming across as a problem! You're not being reasonable about anything. You only see one side of the coin and are arguing "your point" to the bitter end. I'm not going to fall into a discussion that is not going to lead anywhere. You're not open to discussing anything you only want to exercise free speech regarding gun ownership.
     

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