How many hits are in a thumbprint?

So this is a pretty solid read off shroomery about thumb printing for those interested. I believe it's been posted here before, but I feel like it's appropriate.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/1427364

I find thumbprints fascinating. Although, there isn't a lot of concrete information about them for obvious reasons. Eating LSD period changes lives multiply that by 1000 and you're getting into the ballpark of what a thumbprint is going to do. And just to clarify for some people out there (I tend to see this misconception frequently) eating a sheet or two does not equal a thumbprint in anyway whatsoever. IF the sheet has hits that are 100 micrograms and say a typical thumbprint is around 50-100 milligrams. You would have to eat between 5 and 10 sheets (assuming a sheet is 100 hits) to get the equivalent. Even then part of me wants to say this would not even be equivalent to a thumbprint.

 

that shroomery thread is Amazing!

 

*How many hits are in a thumbprint?*

1,254 & 1/3.

Almost the same # as how many licks it takes to get to the chewy center of a tootsie pop.
The owl just gave up to soon.

 

Great shroomery thread. I totally wanna do it. =P If only I didn't have a 'job' and 'responsibilities.'

 

If you honestly wanted to do a thumbprint, you would, it wouldn't matter if you had a job. If you are ready then you will take that step, because it seems to be people's most important event of their life!
So if you truly want to, you'll make time for it

 

Not enough, or approximately 10,000 to 30,000 ug. Which is like, 10-30mg? But there was no standardized thumb print, it was pretty much just a shit load of crystal you would press you thumb in and then pop into mouth accordingly, and then wake up 10 days later confused and slightly loopy.

 

^ according to China cat's thread, not 10 days at all. 18 hours it seemed like... ?

 

The Ld-50 has never really been figured out with any certainty. There are those who have done higher then this(10-12 g) and lived though. But... I wouldn't recommend it.

But, even if the ld-50 was 10 g, we are talking about .1 g. So, 1% of the ld-50. For a number of drugs, 1% of the ld-50 is barely, or not even an active dose. Like, say, Tylenol. Or caffeine. So it's not that big a scare.

But...100 mgs is probably more then you'd get from a thumbprint. I've weighed out 100 mg of various things, and it's bigger than you might imagine from reading this thread. For instance, your average pressed pill is probably within the 80-200 mg weight. That's more then you're going to get from wetting your thumb and pressing, even with the transdermal action. More likely around 20-40 mgs, or 2-400 doses. See, not such a big deal at all! Heck, I've done 10+% of that... Good times, good times.

Personally, if the family happened to stumble across me and offer me a spot, I'd probably be down for the experience. Even if I came out changed, well... nothing lasts forever.

Oh, and to the 'it might not be pure' idea. I -think- it actually has to be pretty pure in order to form a proper crystalline matrix. Otherwise it will stay smaller and more brittle. Some impurities won't mess with it, but I think they have to be way less then 50% of the mass. Though I'm not certain abut that, there may be some impurities with which it can bind into some alternate structures.

 

I seriously doubt that 10-12 GRAMS of LSD would be safe, and it would most likely result in death. If you have any documentation of some one ingesting that much and surviving I would love to see it. I never came across any such reports, and I have done a lot of research about that very thing. Remember the only clinically documented death attributed to LSD was IV ingestion of about 320-325 MILLIGRAMS, a lot less then a gram let alone 10 grams.

In the aforementioned shroomery thread I recall either there or a related thread by chinacat that the most common and amount he has eaten pure crystal is about 1/10 of a gram. That is still the equivalent of 1000 hits at 100ug per.

This incident is the best documented LSD overdose case currently available in all the literature I have been able to dig up. If you figure that 8 people snorted the amount reported, than that is I would guess in the range of 1/4-1/3 gram of LSD, assuming that it was pure crystal and given that LSD crystal is very dense and would weigh more than cocaine for example. Also keep in mind that they received almost immediate medical care, without which death would certainly been the outcome for at least some of them.
http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=3266

Then look at the physiological symptoms incurred from such an amount, "Five were comatose when first seen and most were extremely hyperactive with severe visual and auditory hallucinations at some point during their course. Three required endotracheal intubation. and assisted ventilation and three aspirated vomitus. All had sinus tachyeardia, widely dilated and fixed pupils, emesis, flushing, and sweating. Fever developed in four and diarrhea in two. Transient hypertension was present in three patients and no patient had convulsions. All had coagulopathy as manifested by the inability to form firm clots and absence of clot retraction in the blood specimen tubes. Seven had guaiac-positive vomitus and four showed evidence of mild generalized bleeding (microscopic hematuria in two, gross hematuria in two, oozing at venipuncture sites in three and small amounts of blood in the vomitus or stool in four patients)." and it would be easy to extropolate that consuming 20-25 times that amount would result in death.



As far as comparing the mass of a given powder and comparing to LSD, keep in mind that LSD is a very dense crystal and a small amount weighs a lot more than it looks.

Given all that the difference between effective dose and lethal dose is still in the magnitude of mutiple thousands, so the likelihood of someone in these forums having access to enough to actually OD is rather slim.

 

autumnbreeze, have you checked your profile and messages?

 

Yeah, just read that thread on the shroomery. If that is how a thumbprint is done, I could see it being in the realm of .1 g, considering the high density of lsd. I had always heard that it was done by pressing the thumb on a sizable solid crystal, not a thumb size worth of micro crystals.

Interesting report, of the overdose. Trying to get a figure in my head as to how much '2 lines 3x4x30mm each' would be, considering the density of lsd. It does mention they did at least that much -each-, not split between the 8 of them.

If that was a lighter powder, like mdma or cocaine, it would probably be around 5-600 mg. At least. Because 100 mg makes a lot smaller line then each one of those. about 2x2x15 or so. So I figure each of those lines would be at least 250 mg if they were coke or what-have-you. With the 'much higher' density, I'd assume you'd about double it. So we're talking around 1g each, or so.

However, you're still right. If 1g does all that, 10g would be fairly certain to kill you. Considering the response of those who took that much(though apparently some took more?), one could assume the ld-50 is right around 1g. At that rate, taking .1g starts to be in the danger zone. Taking 10% of the ld-50 of something tends to be creeping into the area where there is some danger.

So, don't thumbprint if you have a bad heart, and be sure to have someone with some medical skill around. That quantity is pretty unlikely to kill you(apparently there are quite a few people who've done that much), but it's not entirely without risk.

 

Yeah, my guesstimation is that they consumed anywhere from 1/4-1/2 gram maybe? Unfortunatly they didn't provide info on what the medically determined amount was based on blood serum and liver levels.

 

I just snagged this from another forum;


Here's some more LD50 info, c&p strait from erowid.

LD50 SOURCES
Clinical Management of Poisoning and Drug Overdose
by Haddad Winchester
page 459:
"No well-documented human deaths resulting directly from the toxic effects of LSD itself have occurred, though LSD has been implicated in accidental deaths, suicides, and homicides. LD50 (That's lethal dose in 50% of those who injest this much) determinations vary widely with species, begin 46 mg/kg in mice, 16.5 mg/kg in rats, 0.3 mg/kg in rabbits and 0.1 mg/kg in elephants. In monkeys, the LD100 is 5 mg/kg. Death in these animals is the result of respiratory failure, preceded in the rabbit by marked hyperthermia. Human data are manifestly lacking, and predictions of the average lethal dose for humans have ranged from 0.2 mg/kg to more than 1 mg/kg, administered orally.
Pharmacotheon by Ott
by Jonathon Ott
p.139
"I must emphasize that there is no danger of death or injury from overdose of LSD, which must have about the highest therapeutic index of any drug known (the ratio of fatal dose to effective dose is unknown since no human being has ever died from an overdose of LSD, but must be very high, as individuals have mistakenly ingested hundreds of doses at a sitting; this is a way of saying that the drug is not at all toxic)."

Psychedelics Encyclopedia
Peter Stafford
p.70
"For those concerned about immediate medical hazards in ingesting LSD...Abram Hoffer has estimated, on the basis of animal studies, that the half-lethal human dose--meaning half would die--would be about 14,000 [ug]. But one person who took 40,000 ug survived. In the only case of death reportedly caused by overdose (Journal of the Kentucky Medical Association), the quantity of LSD in the blood indicated that 320,000 ug had been injected intravenously."

Misc References*
by K Trout
Based on the real world murder of lab animals the following results HAVE been published for LD50 studies of LSD-25:
(Please bear in mind that an oral LD50 is commonly 2 or 3X an intravenous LD50)


Mouse (intravenous)
46 mg/ kg (citing Rothlin & Cerletti (1957) Ann. NY Acad. Sci. 66: 668)
65 mg/ kg (citing information provided by Sandoz Pharmaceuticals)
Rat (intravenous)
16.5 mg/ kg (citing Rothlin & Cerletti (1957) above)
I omitted the rabbit figures as rabbits are extremely overly sensitive to all the major hallucinogens except for mescaline and similar. Source for the above was Usdin & Efron (1979) Psychotropic Drugs and Related Compounds (2nd Edition).

Please also note the values above are given as mg/kg of body weight not as simple mg doses. They suggest a human dose, regardless of the route of administration, would be radically greater than 14 mg.

If averaging the low and high values above, the value obtained is ~41 mg/ kg of body weight. Since this is an IV value (& assuming people respond like rodents)an oral LD50 would likely be in excess of 80 mg/kg (Meaning it would take just over 5 grams for someone of my body weight).

Even taking the lowest figure (16 mg/kg) we still wind up with an LD50 of more than a gram of acid for a 65 kg human; even if using the IV figure as an oral one!

(I tend to doubt this figure is correct and believe that afatal dose would be much less PB)

If anyone knows where Hoffer derived his figures, we'd love to know.

Related references (taken from p 70 of Stafford's Psychedelic's Encyclopedia):

For the 320 mg of LSD injected intravenously under the mistaken idea it was speed (this killed the user and appears to be the only instance of death by LSD overdose), the reference is: Journal of the Kentucky Medical Association 75: 172-173 (I have been unable to obtain a hardcopy of this).

For the dinner party where a bindle of pure crystalline LSD was confused with another one of cocaine and this case of mistaken identity resulted in two fat lines being chopped out and snorted by the 8 people attending: Klock et al. (1975) Clinical Toxicology Volume #8 Issue #2.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"A fatal poisoning with LSD" .
Forensic Sci Int 1985 Jun-Jul;28(2):109-13
Fysh RR, Oon MC, Robinson KN, Smith RN, White PC, Whitehouse MJ.


"Radioimmunoassay, high-performance liquid chromatography and capillary gas chromatography-mass spectrometry were used to detect and measure LSD in the first reported case of fatal poisoning by LSD. The levels found in ante-mortem serum and plasma and in post-mortem blood, liver blood and stomach contents are given."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Extreme hyperthermia after LSD ingestion.
Friedman SA, Hirsch SE.
JAMA 1971 Sep 13;217(11):1549-50

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Coma, hyperthermia, and bleeding associated with massive LSD overdose, a report of eight cases.
Klock JC, Boerner U, Becker CE.
Clin Toxicol 1975;8(2):191-203

Eight patients were seen within 15 min of intranasal self-administration of large amounts of pure D-lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) tartrate powder. Emesis and collapse occurred along with sign of sympathetic overactivity, hyperthermia, coma, and respiratory arrest. Mild generalized bleeding occurred in several patients and evidence of platelet dysfunction was present in all. Serum and gastric concentrations of LSD tartrate ranged from 2.1 to 26 ng/ml and 1000 to 7000 mug/100 ml, respectively. With supportive care, all patients recovered. Massive LSD overdose in humans is life-threatening and produces striking and distinctive manifestations.

 

Actually, the article you cited says they -each- snorted -at least- 2 lines. The lines were not split between the individuals. Hence each took likely between 1-2g intranasally, not 1/2-1/4g.

Considering lsd's capacity to cross the skin barrier, it's unlikely the oral dose would be significantly lower then the IV dose.

One issue with using blood serum in the one deceased case is that lsd-25 breaks down -extremely- quickly in the body. It's a monamine, and is broken down by MAOs very rapidly. I've read, and heard repeated at the MAPS conference(though uncertain the exact truth of it) that a radioactive isotope of lsd(used to track it's progress in the body) is almost completely broken down by the time of the onset of the peak. This indicates that the actual experience of lsd comes from some other chemical that lsd is simply a catalyst for.

This means that the body starts breaking down lsd almost immediately. Likely at a similar rate to other monamines, like DMT for instance(which is broken down completely within 15 minutes). By the time metabolic processes in the fatal case stopped, the vast majority of the lsd in the system would have been metabolized. Hence it's quite likely that he injected an amount much higher then 320 mg. Which makes sense considering that the 8 people you talk about each used -far- more then that and survived.

 

Hmm, I may be wrong on that one. Seems that's mostly base on experiments done in the 60s, with equipment not sensitive enough to register tiny amounts. More recent studies give a half-life of 160 minutes.

Really interesting, considering that 320 mgs is almost certainly quite a bit less then those 8 people took. Of course the death case is strangely not confirmed...?

It just seems odd to have a death at 320 mg when apparently the Family uses 100mg on what appears to be a regular basis, and the only confirmed overdoses involved quantities much higher, and resulted in survival. Shrug.

 

Remember we are making very far removed guesstimations about the weight of what was snorted. The main point too take away here, IMO, is that LSD is toxic in high enough doses. Certainly some of those 8 people would have died had it not been for the speedy medical help they received.
We are also making assumptions concerning the purity and form of the substance snorted. There is, as far as I have read, different "forms" of crystal, hence the different terms, Silver, fluff, amber,etc.
I was just attempting a semi-informed guess as to the amount they actually consumed.
I could be way off or right on the money, unfortunately we will never know for certain concerning that incident.

I for one take anything said about LSD and such stories with a grain of salt unless it is backed up by some type of documentation. So the reports of "family" dosing on 100mg and even chinacats thumbprint stories are just that, stories that may or may not be true. Just think how often in these forums and others that the dosage strength is WAYY overstated.
Someone says they took 2000 mics because they ate a tenstrip, but in reality they have no way of really knowing if they took 2000 or 500 mics without lab testing.

Maybe with the recent reemergence of studies with these substances the real true data will begin to emerge.

 

Wow, that thread at shroomery was incredible.

 

The thumbprint is the most intense journey anyone could take. You better be well experienced. You will die and be reborn. If you make it through the 1st hour you'll be ok. As for the length,it's not a few days or weeks. You will be having a 3-4 month trip before you will be able to start to really function again. After that you adapt and just get used to the hallucinations as they will still be common place. It will change you forever. The moment the print hits your tounge you start to trip and vomit because of the strength.I've done about 6000 hits over the yrs following the gd. The family I bought from had complete trust in me and never made me print. The doses they laid were 400ug. 1 n done for most. I dropped 20 and it was a 4 day journey of intense visuals.the following2 days still had minor visuals and I didn't sleep for those 6 days. It's been 19 yrs since I've dosed and still get flashbacks. There's a lot of good crystal going around again now since the silk roads saved lsd. Mostly white fluff about 90% pure. Anyone going to print it's months not days or weeks so be prepared.

 

Actually bp Smith. Depending on the purity of the said crystal and when it's broken down to lay on the blotter you better know the ug per said hit n measure it properly. .000000025-00000050 mics is all it takes for vivid hallucinations. These families that get the pure crystal n break it down know how much ug is being laid. People want the most bang for their buck but you can't wing it cuz most people have a rough time @ 100 mics.