How do you as a Christian view an unconditionally loving god with conditions

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Mountain Valley Wolf, Feb 27, 2021.

  1. Mountain Valley Wolf

    Mountain Valley Wolf Senior Member

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    That's interesting, of all the scriptures---the one that best places man above nature as opposed to within nature. But based on your brief description I can see where that could be an example of a modern day spiritual experience. Of course if it had such an experience on you, than of course it is. I too believe that all religions have something to contribute and are filled with truths. I think there is something very powerful and good about Jesus' teachings.
     
  2. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

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    It wasn't the dominion part I was referring to, but the statement that humans were made in God's image and likeness. I, of course, had heard this at least 100 times before and didn't think much of it, but this time it occurred to me that if we are made in God's image and likeness, every encounter with another human is an encounter with God, or His reflection. Going to WalMart took on new meaning. I subsequently learned that Jewish rabbis had the same interpretation. God is ineffable, but I believe the closest we come to knowing Him is through encounters with other humans.

    This thought led me to the Hindu concept of Atman. I haven't gone full Hindu by any means, but I sense a fundamental underlying interconnection among all of us and God. Of course, humans are not God, and are flawed. Gen. 3 can be read in light of the Buddhist concept of Upādāna or attachments. Two humans in Paradise, and they can't get their minds off the damned fruit, the one thing they mustn't have. Prototypical! I don't view humans as "above" nature, but rather, properly, as stewards of nature--God's gardeners. By the way, I don't believe that Genesis is to be taken literally. I view the Bible as not the word of God, but rather the words of humans seeking God: for Genesis, P, J & E, each with their own agendas and perspectives. But metaphorically, I think it's profound. Where does Jesus come in. He taught us that the law and the prophets can be summed up in two commandments: to love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength (Deut. 6:5) and “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Lev. 19:18), and to include as our neighbors society's rejects and least advantaged. These are the hermeneutics by which I interpret scripture.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
  3. Mountain Valley Wolf

    Mountain Valley Wolf Senior Member

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    I dig that!

    Unfortunately most Christians do not see it that way---even the Love your neighbor as yourself part, even though they give it lip service.

    My dad passed away last week. He was ill for quite some time, and my siblings and I took turns taking care of him. My spirituality and my wife and her experiences around his passing helped me come to terms with his death. But my younger sister who has tried to dominate everything and push her beliefs has reminded me of all the things I dislike of Christianity and the things that chased me from it. She is Pro-Life, fundamentalist, a Trump supporter, and completely oblivious to the fact that she has swallowed Christo-Fascism, or Christian-Nationalism, hook line and sinker.
     
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  4. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

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    Yes, that's the Christian dilemma--parallel to the patriotic American one. The people who are most vocal about their "patriotism" are the insurrectionists who tried to overthrow our democracy last January. I think of Christianity in evolutionary terms as a "meme" or set of memes that has become remarkably successful (in terms of numbers of adherents worldwide). "Meme" is the term coined by evolutionist and atheist Richard Dawkins to describe "a unit of information" that is "the mutating replicator in human cultural evolution". I'm well aware that the concept has been roundly criticized as "pseudo-scientific dogma" (Luis Benitez-Bribiesca), but I think it has metaphorical utility in understanding the development of human ideas. What's in a Meme? | Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science As is the case with evolution, the traits that make an organism successful in biological terms are not necessarily morally superior, but rather are those which enhance survival and propagation. Same with memes. Memes mutate, compete with each other, and pass their traits on to their offspring through indoctrination.

    The first Christians were Torah-observant Jews caught up in Second Temple apocalyptic eschatology. (Albert Schweitzer used to say that the "historical Jesus" was too historical--His concerns and worldview being radically different from our own.) Then Paul came along, writing in the forties and fifties, and made the religion of Jesus a religion about Jesus-- that religion being about accepting His sacrifice for our sins. Getting rid of circumcision and dietary requirements did wonders for the growth of the religion among Gentiles, but it shifted the focus from practice to belief. The Gospel writers introduced further innovations in the belief department--e.g., the virgin birth, something Paul knew nothing about--and "the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and the Lake of Fire. As the church grew, and women were successful in getting their husbands involved, the house churches hosted by women gave way to buildings run by male patriarchs, and the mythology of apostolic succession developed to justify it all. With the arrival of the Marcionites and the Gnostics in the second century, the beliefs professed by people calling themselves Christian proliferated, and the more anal retentive of church leaders agreed that something needed to be done to rein them in. (Interestingly, this sort of thing goes on even among hippies. Periodically, some members of the Rainbow Family call for a statement of minimum common beliefs that set Rainbows apart--calls that are usually ignored by the rest.) A core of scriptures from the multiplicity of conflicting ones became "canonized" (a process that was also going on within Judaism, partly to meet the challenge of Christianity.) Then, in the Fourth Century, Constantine embraced Christianity, the Prince of Peace became General Jesus, and Christians began worshiping in magnificent buildings presided over by a hierarchy structured along the lines of the imperial bureaucracy. Lord Acton's maxim that "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" resonates with subsequent developments. Later came the Protestant Reformation with its purported emphasis on "sola scriptura" and the priesthood of all believers as the sources of religious authority--leading to a religion divided into "6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries." The Facts and Stats on 33000 Denominations: World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition) The post-Enlightenment "Higher Criticism" and Darwin produced a new division between "modernist" and "fundamentalist" Christians. I'm firmly in the camp of the modernists.

    Generalizing about what "most Christians" believe is risky, and may imply that "most Christians" are the real Christians. The mega churches seem to be doing well at the moment by offering what some regard as the religious equivalent of "fast foods" suitable to the age of McDonald's. I had a friend telling me enthusiastically that the local Life Church was providing popcorn. Jesus warned us against "false prophets" trying to take over the enterprise, and gave us a useful test for telling the authentic from the phonies: we know them by their fruits. I still think love of God and neighbor are the main points, and the exclusionistic doctrines produce "bitter fruit".
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
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  5. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    First you have to ask yourself who you think God is.
    If you think of him in human terms then you are going to have a hard time with your question.
    What do you consider "conditions" to be?
    God is "The One teaching you to benefit yourself".
    Do you have a problem with that?
    Do you consider that a condition?
    If God told you not to jump off a cliff and kill yourself would that conflict with his unconditional love?
    The Bible does mention several things that God says will benefit you and several that he says will not be beneficial.
    Do you find that to be in conflict with his unconditional love?
    Now let's look at it from God's view point, God is eternal and has asked us to live for eternity with him, if we so wish.
    God has a very, very long term view of things.
    At this point, although our lives seem very long term to us, in comparison to eternity our lives are little more than a blink of the eye.
    Now I imagine that you know of people who, because of the choices they have made, their lives are miserable.
    Now what if that person were to live for eternity, continuing to make their lives more miserable every moment for the rest of eternity.
    Out of unconditional love how long would you allow that to go on? 80, 500, 1,000, 10,000, 1,000,000, 100,000,000, 1,000,000,000 years?
    Now I guess some would say; that God should take away the precious gift of free will that he gave us and make us just do what is good for us, just make us robots without choices but how loving is that?
    So wouldn't a God that loves us unconditionally allow us to make the choice between life or death, a life of ever lasting blessings or death, nonexistence, so we don't have to live increasingly miserable lives for eternity...
     
  6. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    The Bible speaks of a resurrection... the purpose of the resurrection is to give people who died before the end of this system of things an opportunity to make the choice, that they didn't get in their lifetime, to decide if they want to live forever in the new system of things or just go back to peaceful sleep for eternity... Life or death...
     
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  7. Tulsa

    Tulsa Members

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    You have asked the right question. I no longer go to church because I could not believe the teachings of Jesus and the teaching of the church which contradicted each other. I chose to believe Jesus and not the church.
     
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