How Could Anyone Deserve an 'ETERNITY' of Suffering?

Moses gave his divorce law because God's ands Jesus' version was anti-love that forced men and mostly women to live in abusive situations.

Christianity preaches that love is the greatest ideal and you would prefer an anti-love divorce policy showing your true morals.

And you have invested so much in your foolish belief system that you will go to your grave while still pushing your immoral views.

Shame on you for not thinking of others.

Regards
DL

 

You do not understand, there are no marriages in heaven. Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. What god has joined no man may put asunder and you blunder in not recognizing the holy spirit in men preferring instead to cast shame.

 

***So wait! Now I'm more confused about what you're saying. Did Moses "give the law" or did your God "Give the law"?

***So, you're saying that God's been sitting around waiting for us to mature?
This would be the same God who "always was, always will be and always remains the same." The same God who made us in "his" imagine and likeness?

***Always wondered, why does God needed genitalia? As in--He, Him, His, The Father. I got that answered, think "It," as in the Power, the Force, the Loving God, the Maker of all seen and unseen.

 

God is that which we invoke as good. Moses being goodly concerned for the state of people gave the law of moses.

No, what we invoke as good has taken time to mature.

To be created in the image and likeness of god is to be endowed with male and female creative principle each according to kind and we create as god creates by speaking our just causes into existence. God said let there be light, consciousness , and saw that it was good. We remain always as god created us.

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Gods image is creative principle diversely expressed in polarity. Let us make man in our own image and likeness, male and female, (creative principle.)

Anthropomorphic descriptions of god are cultural interpretations of symbolic representations of the investigations of some into the human energy system.

 

There is no eternity outside of where we are now. This universe.

I believe the afterlife is the bardo period described by Tibetan monks.

As our bodies shut down the final second of life is experienced as a sleep that lasts that second but is experienced as some lengthy period of time and immediately as that consciousness ends, its already begun anew in the womb of some other being somewhere in the universe.

Consciousness does not end, but our experience of it changes near death and causes us to enter an afterlife realm that fits into a tiny fraction of a second but lasts until the body is truly dead.

Then, because the essence of our being is pure consciousness, and consists of the whole of the cosmos, from which we are not detached, a new being that is born is what our experience of life becomes.

 

Some westerners who refuse to believe in reincarnation postulate that that entire last moment we experience becomes an eternity of dreaming, but this must be untrue, as the body does die, and even our dreaming is dependent on the existence of the body.

There is no eternity outside of this present universe. The universe encompasses all places.

 

Shame on you for not thinking of others.

Regards
DL

 

subjectively , the last moment 'seems' forever to the one dying .
one can reason this from a self-knowledge of dreaming related
to a feeling of time . one can do a whole lot of dreaming within
a minute , and if some urgency is required cram the whole movie
into a speck .

death would imply urgency . an aspect of conciousness is
time just as it is in music . we are motion , and dancing we
are at
play
with time and space .

it is well
to die in peace .

a curse on your enemy is to wish them a last moment of hellish mind .

in christ , have no enemy .

 

In some periods in History God did not make an eternity so hard to Suffer. Those were the period of tranquil Conscience like the sixties and seventies. Eternity could have often been a comedy, and it was truly the age of Confession. That was the time when eternity ended on the note of finite dread and self-realization for decisions; we have to make the tough choices, the governments would say. All in all it was, in life itself, the rather short periods of relief and recreation which Endings were hard to bare. Pragmatically, it was the beginnings and endings which defined human nature. People didn't really care for choosing and choices. Actually most individuals thought that to be a concept of psychology and critical debates for each one's self-interest.

Then came the end of the cold war and communist era. Suffering is hard and seems like an eternity but we can still appreciate the many rewards we get at the end of these misunderstandings. The end is always near; why not consider that Good.

 

Popularly, this too shall pass.

 

"subjectively , the last moment 'seems' forever to the one dying .
one can reason this from a self-knowledge of dreaming related
to a feeling of time . one can do a whole lot of dreaming within
a minute , and if some urgency is required cram the whole movie
into a speck .

death would imply urgency . an aspect of conciousness is
time just as it is in music . we are motion , and dancing we
are at
play
with time and space .

it is well
to die in peace .

a curse on your enemy is to wish them a last moment of hellish mind .

in christ , have no enemy . "

All dreams end, no matter how much dream is crammed into a few moments. All things must pass, and a second that lasts for 49 subjective years still ends.

 

Never one to sugarcoat it, I say you people spend alot of energy knocking Christianity. No, I am not a Christian, but I see alot a God haters around here. At least have the guts to admit it. What a horse laugh. This is more hilarious than Comedy Central. ROTFL!

- JKHolman

 

I can't speak for others, but I try to be respectful of other belief systems. I believe that it is all about the same God. And I can talk for quite a long time over how all religions and spiritualities have similar concepts, beliefs, and how they all have evolved from the same primal spiritual belief system.

But I have a hard time with the judgmental aspects of Christianity. The world is too big of a black and white duality to Christians (and a few other religions too). It is a Post-planter culture, male chauvinistic institution that divides the world in an in-group (Christians) and an out-group (everyone else).

I walk the Red Road (follow indigenous ways, particularly those of the Lakota (Sioux)). I am spiritual, not religious. I have never felt at home in a religion. I was raised as a Christian, and I traveled around the world seeking religion. But I found a home in spirituality. I had numerous experiences through my life that gently nudged me in this direction. But to too many Christians, I am following the ways of Satan, and I am playing with evil. It doesn't matter that there is a lot of good and power in these ways, nor does it matter that there is not an evil like you have in Christianity---to many Christians it is evil.

And Christian missionaries are destroying powerful traditions around the world. I have seen this firsthand---they are taking away the connections indigenous people have to their own ancestors. They are destroying their cultures, and taking away the identity of who they are. Missionaries think this is good, and have no concept of how it leaves people without their own cultural identity---but instead with an alien foreign value system and identity forced upon them.

I know there are liberal Christians, there are certainly theologians who have studied religion and understand quite a bit---such people I respect highly. But there are plenty other Christians who think they are liberal, but are not. I would invite any Christian who thinks he is liberal to come and sit with me while I load a sacred pipe. I pray to the four directions, then the sky, the earth, and the sacred center (and helping spirits, including animal spirits who have helped me, or I have a personal connection to). Would you be comfortable smoking that pipe with me---letting the smoke carry the prayers out into the universe?

The sacred pipe teaches us not to be bitter towards anyone. To be understanding and realize that we are all related. But I am human like anyone else. I am having a particularly hard time right now---because I am having to deal with a problem created by a Christian.

In early October, my wife and I pulled into a strip mall. We were having an argument, but nothing serious. A parked for a minute. We were sitting in a dark '91 firebird with dark tinted windows. My wife is a fiery Filipina and she will raise her arms sometimes when she gets angry. We argued for a few minutes and then left, where I dropped her off at the house, and then went off to a Starbucks.

It was late afternoon and the sun was low. About 30 or 40 feet away, a 20-year old youth counselor from a church saw us arguing. He was to the West of us which means that the sun was shining on the dark tint on the windows. Somehow he was certain that he saw me clench my fists and punch my wife in the stomach. He even said I was hitting her and she was raising her arms to defend herself. He even said that she raised a purse to protect herself. There is no way he could see me hit her in the torso in that car, And he could not really see much of anything. The fact is, I never even raised my hands. But more importantly, I have never hit, struck, slapped, pushed, grabbed, or in any other way hurt my wife. But he insisted I did, and called the cops.

I am sure that he thinks he saw this happen. But my son and my dad and I tried to recreate the situation, and you can't hardly see anything. How he thinks he saw what he saw, I just don't know. But he thought he was doing the good Christian thing.

The cops showed up at my house, lying to my wife that there were several witnesses and video tape, and so forth. She insisted I never touched her, but unfortunately her English is not that good, so the cop continued to badger her, and finally twisted her words around to say that I hit her lightly. (My son and a neighbor witnessed that conversation). The cop then tried to say she had a mark on her eye, she said she didn't, then he said that she had a fat lip or a cut, she said that is not true. He said he wanted to get a camera, after which she started to have an anxiety attack. Paramedics were called and she told them to make the police go because they were making her sick. Fortunately the gave her a paper that they signed saying that she had no bruising, contusions, cuts, or any other signs of abuse. There were also 6 other people there, my son, stepson and his girlfriend, a neighbor and others, all of whom said I would never do such a thing. Later when my wife recovered, her and my brother went to the Police Station to give a full statement saying that I did not strike her. The officer said it didn't matter because he had already filled out the report, and that she had told him that I hit her lightly. She insisted that he was the one that said that not her. But he then assured her that the case would probably be dismissed.

Long story short---it wasn't. Cops showed up at my house a few days later and arrested me, putting me in jail for a three day weekend. My wife had an anxiety attack and the paramedics had to be called again. It was my first time in jail, and was the worst thing that has ever happened to me in my life. Now I have a restraining order and can't even go home. The DA has played games with my wife---telling her that the judge would remove the restraining order if she asks, but then when my wife asks, tears streaming down her face, telling how hard it is for her without me, and how I am innocent, the DA then shot the request down stating that this is a credible witness, a good Christian kid, and why would he say such a thing if it was not true. The DA, and the court's Victim Advocacy people also met with my wife and even though she insists that I did nothing, they try to use her English against her and twist her words to make her agree that I hit her. My son stays with her, and he insisted that they were twisting her words.

But as it is, I cannot go home, I cannot see my wife. She is an emotional wreck. This has become a big financial burden. It is like I am still in jail, because of the hell this has turned into. Both times that the paramedics were called, my wife's BP went over 200, and they warned her that if she doesn't calm down she would have a stroke. My whole family is stressed and suffering from this. It is truly a hell.

I would like to ask that 20-year old Christian----where was his God, while I was laying on a hard cot at 4:00 am, light shining on my eyes, noise all around, unable to sleep, but worst, holding my head from a splitting headache---the combined result of my sinuses, stress, and the lack of caffeine, compounded by the fact that I had to wait all day the previous day for the nurse, who only gave me 2 tylenol and a weak decongestant? Where was his God as I suffered that headache for 3 days, and had nothing to eat but the worst crap excuse for food I have ever seen (and I've seen some bad food in some bad countries)? Where is his God when my wife suffers alone? Where is his God now that I can't even go home, nor see my wife, nor deal with any of the problems I need to deal with to get my life back on track (I can't even get the things I need from home---because my wife and my son don't know where they are, or which ones, or whatever)? Where is his God now that I have lost thousands of dollars over this issue? Where is his God now that I have to pay $3,500 dollars to an attorney just to prove my innocence? Where is his God when I had to do time for a crime I never committed? Where was his God when he was being a good Christian to fight the evil in the world around him and called to report that I was beating my wife? I have had 3 days followed by 3 weeks of my life (so far) taken away from me. I am not the kind of person to be bitter, or hold a grudge, but...

I would love to ask him such questions. But when I pray with my pipe, I understand that I should hold no animosity towards him. We are all related. And that his God is my God

I am not a God hater. In fact----I am an old hippy---I don't judge anyone or their trip. But I don't agree with the institution, and I feel it causes a lot of damage. I have been judged by Christians over and over. I can usually brush that off. But it will take some work to not blame this 20-year old Christian for the pain, suffering, and losses I am experiencing because of his zealousness. And it really is more the police and the justice system that is at fault. The police officer should have dropped it right away when he saw there was no case----but there is that same zealousness driving the system (or it could be a profit motive----our jail and courthouse are owned by 8 judges).

 

Belief systems are one thing, but the very same person who adheres to one can have a simultaneously occurring system for understanding the Other. In fact we (the people thinking of their religious faith) can be unaware of believing in "god" for things as much as people, and people as much as things. The whole forums-site means to qualify us to accept the World without a belief system wherever we may find need.

Living in a world of things and ideas possesses an anti-mystical tendency for God maintaining our prejudiced dogmatic review of simply put: "the existence of something from Nothing". No; then ex-nihilo pre-ceded all time.

 

This is the logical conclusion of the rationalistic and objectivistic nature of Western thought. As we lose sight of our own subjective nature, and become alienated from our subconscious mind, and our true selves, we become overly focused on the objectivistic conscious reality of the world around us.

Religion is a man-made institution. It is all about existing in physical reality---which means power, manipulation, rationalism, objectivism... The true spiritual experience becomes abstract and even irrelevant. Religion becomes, as Carl Jung said, nothing more than a creed.

The truly authentic spiritual experience, I believe, is incredibly subjective---it is a very intimate and individual experience of great power. It is something that only you can really know if it happened or not.

For me, the church separates man from the spiritual---it stands in between as a self-appointed intercessor. There are some who can find the spiritual experience through the church, and I say more power to them. But to the masses who think they are religious, I say, look inside yourself, break down the dogma and the teachings--literally, to the point of death and rebirth of your whole belief system. It is a risk; it is existentially scary; it is, for many, breaking a connection to one's own family, parents, and ancestors; it may mean finding out that you are in fact someone entirely different than you believed; it may seem like you are playing with the devil----but you will come out with a real affirmation of those beliefs that are true to you--they may be Christian, they may be atheist, they may be Hindu---they may even be something you cannot put a label on. But then your spiritual journey can truly begin.

Modern man needs this because we do not have the strong mystical experience that our ancestors did. Sure---we try to convince ourselves that we do---we point to miracles and prayers answered. But that is nothing like sitting on a hill in a vision quest, for example, and having the whole universe physically teach you and show you things in a manner that goes way beyond rationality, and how we see physical reality.

 

Mountain Valley Wolf, I too believe that these ministries do more harm than good by corrupting foreign cultures with their judeochristian dogma. They minister in the name of love, but what they're doing is quite destructive.

 

How can anyone deserve what is done to them here, cruelly and against the rightness of life or waste the highly valuable life they're given?
I don't know where you are wrong and not saying you are, but the way some people treat life, the living and the creation is the only answer I can give you.
Nobody wants to get on the wrong side of g-d, but what if it is a matter we aren't really ablr to see clearly or understand from here, but we understand how the world is more evil, lies, casual cruelty and denying our part or responcibility - or maye it's just lack of heart?
My first thought was "how could they not" but on a bigger thought, there are tons of people gravitated towards hells of many kinds. Maybe that is their afterlife. The place that seems "normal" to them?

 

That's right Red Fox VII. Indigenous people without the institution of religion are particularly vulnerable. Indigenous people tend to see the world as inherently sacred. If everything is sacred than what is wrong with someone else's way of contacting spirit or the gods. To them it would initially be just another tool to deal with the universe. They naively do not realize that as soon as they start following the Christians they will be taught to see the world in a dualistic good/evil manner that will soon be used to turn them against their own beliefs.

The next step is always to force them to become 'civilized' and to fit into the dominant society. The culture and life they lived before is filled with things that offend the missionaries, not to mention that the culture is built around their spirituality which the missionaries already deem evil. The result is they are forced into the dominant culture, prgrammed to believe that if they are good enough they can be like everyone else in the dominant culture. But world wide in every nation they are second class citizens---it doesn't matter how good of a Christian they try to be. Numerous Native Americans have written about how they were programmed to believe that if they acted white, and were good Christians, and followed their programming, that they would fit into white America and be successful. That rarely worked.

One of the numerous countries I have lived in is the Philippines. That is a prime example of a very dysfunctional culture resulting from the conversion to Christianity---in this case Catholicism. My wife's family is a case in point. Her grandparents were healers in the old ways---the ways before the Spanish. But---let me just say that it has left the family with what the Western world labels as mental illness, and Philippine Catholics may label as a curse or a possession. In my wife's family there are some odd cases that were never treated from the old ways. In the case of my stepdaughter, who had a mental breakdown at 9 years old (I've written the story elsewhere on this site)---I refused to let my stepdaughter be exorcised and by luck we were discussing this in a taxi who knew a shaman (of the old ways) who healed her instantly and explained how it was part of a gift she had. It opened my eyes.

 

I can't affix neurosis of identity to any one culture or even any particular cultural clash and subsequent brutality to established mind sets, but I think it rare to be un-afflicted even in indigenous populations. Is anyone deserving of suffering even for an instant? The obvious question that comes to my mind is where does the standard of deserving come from?

Ways , old or new are simple or ritualistic appeals for social cohesion. They work to sponsor cooperation within groups but the particular taboo/blessed cultural set of one group may and often does put groups at enmity with one another. This ritualistic traditionalism is a primitive form working okay in a sparsely populated world with widely separated groups but is ultimately unsuited for complicated hyper intense cultural interactions.
That is in this world we need come together or we will come apart.

Shamans old and new are specialists and do not represent the interests of any one culture at large but the interests of humanity. Scoundrels abound no doubt but the blind are the ones that follow the blind. They are the seeing that follow sight.

What did you see when your eyes were opened?

 

You would be surprised at how mentally stable indigenous populations tend to be. Not that such a life would be suitable for modern man. But comparatively speaking, indigenous people are more in tune with who they are, and their connection to their universe around them. The fact that they are not manipulated by the system (consumerism) probably accounts for quite a bit of this as well. But there is also the aspect of what you speak of as the Ways in your next paragraph, that deals with the human urges towards violence and sexuality, that provides a healthier way of expressing and resolving such issues. Civilized man, including modern man, tries to pretend that such urges do not exist with the serious and harmful result that such urges get expressed more violently. It is no coincidence, for example, that the peaceful era of Victorian Europe was followed by two very bloody, and extremely violent World Wars. I have several books on indigenous cultures that demonstrate the emotional stability that is typically fostered through their traditional norms and customs. For example, one book demonstrates that while the indigenous attitudes towards sex may seem decadent by our standards, there is a surprising lack of sexual hang ups and perversions in such societies and likewise sexual crimes are very low.

When I used the term 'Ways' I was referring to the old spiritual ways, of the old healers. The Catholic church did its best to destroy and erase all these old spiritual traditions. Outside of the indigenous tribes in the Philippines, I know of only one person who practices these old techniques today---and that was the one who healed my stepdaughter. There are lots of psychics and healers in the Philippines, but they all are heavily influenced by the Catholic church and Spanish traditions. And I would say that they are just about all scammers and fakes. This little old farmer that healed my stepdaughter had 2 spirit animals that assisted him, and he healed her in ways that were similar in many parts of the world with such healers. And all he charged us was a little tobacco. But most of the last healers like him were in my wife's grandparent's generation and are all dead now---along with their knowledge.

While I would agree that they do not represent the interests of any one culture, their ritual and techniques are grounded in the cultural motifs of the surrounding indigenous culture that they are a part of. Such motifs, techniques, and understandings of the universe is very ancient and is a direct link back to a primal belief system. This is why the motifs may be culturally grounded, but there are also very universal aspects that are based on what is easily determined to be a shared understanding of reality.

I saw the power of these old spiritual traditions. But it would be more realistic to say that my eyes started to open. When he healed my stepdaughter, it was so unbelievable and strange that it took numerous other experiences for me to really see.