How can God be singular?

NOTE: Campbell and I are different people, but with similar views

 

What do I learn by name calling? I don't believe I called anyone a name. That was your call.

I believe before you go to the Sciptures, you first must go to God and ask for the understanding. The Sciptures tell us that the natural man will not understand the things of the Spirit. Also, Rome may of influnced the religion of the day, yet the written word was not changed or added to to fit the religion.
If you consider the majority Text, you would understand that there are many translations of the Bible made or copied by many monks an others over hundreds of years, and written in many countries, yet these Books agree.

As far as you belief that many of the prophecies are fallacious, that may be your opinion, yet many would not agree with you. And as far as the Christian faith being a product of Rome, it was the Old Testament that stated the when God's servent would arrive, He would be rejected by His own people.
And it was also in the Old Testamen where we read that GOD stated where ever the Jew wandered they polluted God's name. I am not the one who made that statement, that was the God of the Old Testament.

Where ever true Christanity flourshied, there was always an improvement in the human condition. For hundreds of years Christians have rushed aid to the down and out, they have opened up hosiptals, and sent food and doctors around the globe, always helping people who needed it most. Over all, the Christian faith has been one of the most positive influnces on our planet. This is not triumphalism, it is a simple fact. Israel has few friends in this world, but Israel has strong backing by America. Why, because Israel is supported by American Christians. Israel will always have Christian friends.

I have felt God's presence as well, yet I have also had God speak to me and reveal things to me. When I was younger I had just failed a job interview. When I came home I was going up the stairs and God spoke to me and said. "Tom, you did everything but pray about it." I agreed with His statement and continued to my mothers bedroom and kneeled down and prayed. In prayer I told God that I really needed a job, and I said Jesus, I know you know I need a job, and from this point on what ever happens now it will be because of you. I then said Amen. As soon as I said the A of Amen the phone next to me began to ring and when I picked it, the man on the other end of the line told me he just picked up my application for employment and asked me if I could start work monday morning at 8 am. That is the power of God, and a true story. Another time I was driving in may car and was thanking God for my life when He suddenly said, your wife is going to have a child. He spoke to me when I was right in the middle of my prayer. I told the Lord my wife and I had not even talked about another child, but quickly thanked Him for the child to come. When I got home my wife was asleep and I leaned against the door and said to myself, my poor wife, she is pregnant and does not even know it. I then went to bed only to wake up about four hours later. My wife was sick in the bathroom. And yes, she then realized she was pregnant. But God told me she was before she even knew it. Over the years God has worked in my life in such ways. His is not a mystery man to me. I know who He is. God has even defended me in times of trouble. My God is powerful, and He can be trusted.

 

Campbell, if you read my posts fully you'll find that I was directly quoting someone else, who was indeed name calling. I never called you any names.

Then what do you call the "New Testament?"

You're right, because there are certain translations that became the accepted ones for Christianity, based on the septuagint and vulgate, and yet they disagree with the actual hebrew text.

And the number of people who hold a belief does not determine what is True. Indeed, just as there are many who would not agree with me, there are many who would. And those who agree with me generally don't have their minds tainted by a particular flavor of subjectivity.

Could you please give me the book, chapter, and line, of every passage that you quote? I'm not so versed in scripture that I have it all in my head. I'll give you an example of what I mean. In Ezekiel 8:14-16 we find:

"Ezekiel 8:14; "Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the LordÍs house, and I saw women sitting there weeping for Tammuz.

8:15 He said to me, ñDo you see this, son of man? You will see even greater abominations than these.î

8:16 Then he brought me to the inner court of the LordÍs house. There at the entrance to the LordÍs temple, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men facing east, with their backs to the LordÍs temple, and they were worshiping the sun toward the east. "

Now here we have a potential prophecy about Jesus, which I guess works in your favor of adding to the prophecies about Jesus in the Tanach. How is this about Jesus?

The Sabbath has always been Saturday. And yet, one group changed the day to Sunday. Why would they do that? Well, Sunday was the day when pagans got together to worship the sun. It's part of the paganization of Christianity, just like the Christ mythos. You have Christians absorbing pagan practices and purging Jewish ones. It's understandable though, as whatever Jewish following the historical Jesus may have had seems to have been limited, probably because Jewish theology does not create a need for such a person. But among the pagans he became very popular.

It also says these people are weeping for Tammuz. Tammuz is one of the pagan dying gods, who dies and is reborn every year. These dying gods are all variations on a theme, the same theme that the Christ mythos picks up. Christ is just a spin on Tammuz and Mithras and the rest.

So here we see two similarities between this abomination and Christianity. I guess you might be right and Jesus is possibly found somewhere in the Tanach.

Right. The Jewish text does chide the Jewish people for their sins. But you're leaving out a huge part, which is the nature of those sins. When you practice avodah zara you're doing exactly what they were being told not to do, and what according to the text the Babylonian exile was for. And yet, we also find in Ezekiel:

"20. The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. - Ezekiel 18:19-20 "

Each person is responsible for their own actions alone, which also spits in the face of of the doctrine of Original Sin. And furthermore:

"And when a wicked man repents of his wickedness that he has done, and does justice and righteousness, he will keep his soul alive. - Ezekiel 18:27 "

That's doublespeak. Using this statement you can say, basically, that wherever Christianity improved the human condition it was true, and wherever it didn't write it off as false Christianity. Please don't play word games. And really, it's not relevant to the Judaism board anyway.

...slaughtered Jews and treated them unequally when it did allow them to live, made wars against those who would not take on their beliefs, forced conversion by the sword, threatened the lives of those whose scientific discoveries posed a threat to their current worldview, and generally not offered humanitarian aide except as a guise for spreading the gospel which imo is not the most noble reason for helping your fellow man.

Right, but the main motivation isn't to help the people. It's to bring about the second coming, and what do those same American Christians believe will happen to those Jews in Israel then?

On your first story, I've observed synchronicity in my life too. It happens to all of us. And while I haven't ever experienced the hearing of God's voice, I have experienced the automatic knowing that God wanted me to act in a certain way. Now this goes back to that flavor thing I told you about. My personal beliefs would not assign a literal voice to God, even in my mind, so I would not experience God in that way. It would just be more of an automatic knowing, like telepathy and connection, devekut with the Cosmic Mind, that "This is what you must do."

On your second story, again synchronicity, I know Jews for whom things like this happen on a regular basis. Part of it is about surrendering to the possibility, but it is not reliant on believing in a particular myth. As I said before, your view tainted by believing that your subjective experience is equivalent with a Universal Truth.

Nor is God a mystery man to me, as I think my last post made clear. You are I am guessing very familiar with tehillim, the psalms. Remember that those were written not by Christians, but by Jews. And yet they express emotions which I'm sure you connect with. But how can that be if they're by people who never knew Jesus? Could it be that all people have access to God?

 

The greatest arguement against the Chruch in Rome not purposly changing the New Testament is the fact that the New Testament does not agree with the church in Rome on many issues. If the Church changed the New Testament they never would of allowed such a Book to survive to threaten their authority.

The Old Testament stated Gods Servant would be rejected by His own people. Isaiah 53:1-3 Psalm 118:22, 23 The stone the builders rejected became the head of the corner.

It was the Apostles in 33AD that introduced Sunday worship Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor. 16:1-2

Jewish Theology does not create a need for such a person? Todays Jews may not be looking for such a person but the Jews of the past certainly did.
And since such a person did come and was the fulfillment of the prophecy and He was rejected, now modern theology states there is no such need for such a person. The fact is, the Jews missed their day of visatation, and that is why they nolonger look for such a man.

Ezekiel 36:22 The prophecy speaks of the Jews polluting Gods name to the very end of time. Because this is an end time prophecy.

Where ever Christianity spread there was an improvement in the human condition, especially where woman were concerned. Many of the Middle Eastern faiths still reguard woman as cattle. Christianity does not. And please don't blame murders that kill in the name of Christ, as Christians. Jesus said it Himself, no murders will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

And what could be more nobel than wanting people to believe in your truth.
Millions of dollars are spent each year because countless Christians believe in that truth, the money they given to help the down and out, is a direct result of the love they have for Christ. So are you telling me they should hide that truth. Give me a break. You don't find this kind of outreach in the Jewish faith, because it was the man Christ Jesus who reached out to the world, and not the Jews.

Christians believe that at the end of time God will reveal Himself to the Jewish People as the Old Testament Proclaims Zec. 12

The Jews in the past had access to God. Yet by the time Christ appeared few of the religious leaders had that sensativity. And that is why they missed the time of their visatation.

 

There was a church and a Jewish Temple next to eacho ther. One day the priest asks the Rabbi: "Why is it you dont have any mouse in your shul?"
The Rabbi answers: "Well, when they become 13 years old we make them to become Bar mitzvah. After they become Bar mitzvah they don't come to the shul anymore."

 

A cabbie picks up a nun. She gets into the cab, and notices that the very handsome cab driver won't stop staring at her.
She asks him why he is staring He replies:
"I have a question to ask you, but I don't want to offend you"
She answers, "My son, you cannot offend me When you're as old as I am and have been a nun as long as I have, you get a chance to see and hear just about everything. I'm sure that there's nothing you could say or ask that I would find offensive.
Well, I've always had a fantasy to have a nun kiss me." She responds,
"Well, let's see what we can do about that: #1, you have to be single and #2, you must be Catholic." The cab driver is very excited and says, "Yes, I'm single and Catholic!
OK" the nun says. "Pull into the next alley." The nun fulfils the cab
driver's fantasy with a kiss that would make a hooker blush. But when they get back on the road, the cab driver starts crying.
"My dear child," said the nun, why are you crying?"
"Forgive me but I have sinned. I lied and I must confess, I'm married and I'm Jewish." The nun says, "That's OK. My name is Eric and I'm going to a Halloween party

 

My argument is that there is a new testament, and that in itself is a violation.

You're quoting out of context. We already know that the servant mentioned in Isaiah is the Jewish people.

Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, [art] my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. [9] [Thou] whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou [art] my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. (KJV)

[44:1] Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: [2] Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. (KJV)

[44:21] Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou [art] my servant: I have formed thee; thou [art] my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. (KJV)

[45:4] For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (KJV)

[49:3] And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. (KJV)

If the servant is Israel your quote from Isaiah is clearly in reference to something else. And psalms is not a prophetic book. It belongs to ketuvim, not neviim. That passage is also talking about Israel.

That doesn't make the prophecy any less about Jesus. The practice of his followers is still generally to worship on sunday.

No they didn't, and you have no grounds for making such a claim.. Give me quotes from the Tanach to show that they believed there was a need for salvation from sin in another. Even in Genesis, Jews find a more affirming message:

"If you do good, won't there be special privilege? And if you do not do good, sin waits at the door. It lusts after you, but you can dominate it." Gen 4:7

No need for a go-between to remove our sin. We can overcome it.

Prophecies are not merely foretellings of the future. As such they would teach nothing. It is not the job of a prophet to tell the future. The prophets chide about what will happen if behaviors are not changed. Negative prophecies can be avoided.

I already asked you once not to play word games. When Christians kill in the name of Christianity, that reflects on Christianity just as much as Muslims killing in the name of Islam. You can't write off the bad things people do as not carried out by an organization just because the founder of an organization wouldn't approve.

How about helping people regardless of what truth they choose to believe in, respecting their values and ways of life?

No, I'm telling you that you don't need to force it on people. The world knows what Christianity is. If they're interested, they'll come.

At the time of Jesus, Judaism was much more open to proselytes, but when Rome became Christian strict rules were put into place that made such activity illegal, even punishable by death. That 's why you get stories like the one about hillel, who was approached by a non-jew who wanted him to teach him the whole Torah while standing on one foot, and he said, "Love your neighbor as yourself. The rest is commentary. Now go study." Because really originally Judaism was very open. But Christianity and then Islam made that an impossibility. However you're right, Judaism never went to the lengths of forced conversion by the sword or any of the other horrors associated with Christian fanaticism.

That's in complete violation of what the Torah teaches.

Deuteronomy 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore His statutes, and His commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong [thy] days upon the earth, which the LORD thy G-d giveth thee, for ever. (KJV)

Psalm 111:2 The works of the LORD [are] great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein. [3] His work [is] honorable and glorious: and his righteousness endureth for ever. [4] He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the LORD [is] gracious and full of compassion. [5] He hath given meat unto them that fear him: He will ever be mindful of His covenant. [6] He hath shewed his people the power of his works, that He may give them the heritage of the heathen. [7] The works of his hands [are] verity and judgment; all His commandments [are] sure. [8] They stand fast for ever and ever, [and are] done in truth and uprightness. [9] He sent redemption unto his people: He hath commanded His covenant for ever: holy and reverend [is] His name. (KJV)

2 Kings 17:37 And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which He wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.

(Leviticus 26:44) "And yet for all that (rebellion), when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, destroy them, [nor] break the covenant with them, for I am HaShem, their G-d."

etc.

And that last one also seems like a decent response to your "end times" quote.

Proof?

 

Judaism never went to the lengths of forced conversion by the sword or any of the other horrors associated with Christian fanaticism. NEVER? AND EXACTLY HOW DO YOU PICTURE CIRCUMCISION.

 

Moshe goes to see his Rabbi. "Rabbi, last week I missed saying grace after meals."
"Why," asked the Rabbi.
"Because I forgot to wash my hands before the meal."
"That's twice you've broken the law but you still haven't told me why."
"The food wasn't kosher."
"You ate non-kosher food?" asked the Rabbi.
"It wasn't a Jewish restaurant."
"That makes it even worse," said the now angry Rabbi. "Couldn't you have eaten in a kosher one?"
"What, on Yom Kippur?"

 

Haha. Seriously though, you might find your posts get better reception if you created a Jewish Humor thread.

 

The New Testament is not a violation. It is the fulfillment of Jermiah 31:30, 36. This is where God promised to make a new covanant with Israel.

If the STONE the builders rejected is the Jewish people. Who are the builders? Psalm 118:22

PSALMS IS NOT A PROPHETIC BOOK?
Psalm 2: 6-7 Son of God. Psalm 22:2 Darkness. Psalm 69:21 Vinegar. Psalm 22:6-8 Mocking Psalm 22:17 Nakedness Psalm 22:18 Gambling for clothes. Psalm 34:20 Unbroken bones. Psalm 16:10 Resurrection.
And this was just in the Psalms, sounds like a story we have read about before.

Jews did not wait for a Messiah?
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Judaism believes the Messiah is a man who will be a descendant of King David and will usher in an era of peace and prosperity for Israel and all the nations of the world.

You can overcome sin yourself.
Could you please show me where it states this in the OLD TESTAMENT?

PROPHECY IS TELLING YOU WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. ZEC.12 COULD CARE LESS ABOUT HOW YOU BEHAVE. The prophecy is telling you what is going to happen. Where do you find anything in that chapter to suggest outherwise?

And I can write off bad things people do in the name of the Christian faith. Especially if it involves murder. Because people who murder are not Christians.
Jesus tells us than many would worship Him with their lips, but their hearts would be far from Him. Murders are not Christians, no matter how hard you want them to be.

And so you believe Christians who believe they know the way of eternal life should keep quiet and allow the one's they are trying to help to die and go to hell. And in this way, they can respect their values. YEAH RIGHT.
That's like watching a home burn to the ground, and never alerting the people asleep inside, because you don't want to disturb their sleep time.

Telling people about Christ is not forceing it on them. It's sharing the good news. If they don't like what they hear, they will walk away.

Also if you recall Judaism killed many Christians in the early years, and felt justified in doing so.

God does not write blank checks for Israel. The promises you have listed here have stipulations which you failed to list, such as the one in Leviticus 26:44. You did not state what the Jews had to do for this to come to pass. Leviticus 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; 41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: 42 THEN WILL I REMEMBER MY COVENANT WITH JACOB, AND ALSO MY COVENANT WITH ISAAC, AND ALSO MY COVENANT WITH ABRAHAM WILL I REMEMBER; AND I WILL REMEMBER THE LAND.
And that was the problem throught out the whole Old Testament. The Jews would never stay right with God, and they are not right with Him today. We only need to look at the Scriptures, to see how historically the Jews always wandered away from God. When it was easier to serve the one true God, the Jews would would bow down to other strange Gods.

God tells us in Isaiah 49:6 ''It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.''
Who is the light to the Gentiles? Who is bringing salvation to the ends of the earth? I WILL TELL YOU. IT IS GOD'S SERVANT, JESUS CHRIST. He is the only one in your Scriptures, fulfilling Isaiah 49:6. And all of the other prophecies, you deny.

 

That prophecy cannot be a reference to the NT and I will show you why:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah"

1. Those houses had been in exile and to this day we still don't know exactly what happened to the house of Israel. It's referring to the houses being reunited before the prophecy, and that's not something that happened.

2. It's not a new law. It's a new covenant. Nowhere in the passage does it mention a change in law or any new law being put into place, only a new covenant, or agreement. However the NT claims to be a change in law, which is found nowhere in this passage. This passage is more suggestive of a renewed agreement, but not a change in law.

3. If you look at where it says, "[33] But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their G-d, and they shall be my people. [34] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

In other words, nobody will ever falter in their actions related to the law because there will be some sort of change in something essential about human nature as related to the mitzvot. This hasn't happened yet.

4. See where it says "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Everyone doesn't know God yet, so that is also evidence that prophecy hasn't happened yet.

I guess I must reiterate from my previous post:

Daniel 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my G-d, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful G-d, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; (KJV)

Nehemiah 1:5 And said, I beseech thee, O LORD G-d of heaven, the great and terrible G-d, that keepeth covenant and mercy for them that love him and observe his commandments: (KJV)

1 Chronicles 16:13 O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. [14] He is the LORD our G-d; his judgments are in all the earth. [15] Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; [16] Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; [17] And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant. (KJV)

Isaiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. (KJV)

The surrounding nations.

That's not a prophecy, nor does the Hebrew text give any indication that the word "son" should be capitalized. We already know who the son of God is. Just take a look at Exodus 4:22.

I have no idea why you quoted psalms 22:2.
No idea why you quoted 69:21.
No idea about why you quoted 22:6-8.
I'm not going to bother with the rest since these are proving to be duds. Why don't you give me the least interpretive of what you find in psalms and I'll have a look at those? And you might want to make sure that you're going according to Jewish chapter numbering. It may be different from Christian number in psalms. This is the Jewish board after all, so we go according to the Tanach, and not the OT. You can find a translation with Jewish numbering here:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=63255

Usually it doesn't differ, but in some cases it does.

I never said they weren't waiting for the moshiach. I will quote myself: "Give me quotes from the Tanach to show that they believed there was a need for salvation from sin in another."

The fact is, the Jewish moshiach was never thought to save from sin, or offer any kind of salvation, or be needed to be brought close to God. The Jewish moshiach is supposed to be a leader. Now, the answer that you've given about the requirements for the moshiach is quite vague, so let's be a little bit more specific:

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with Òfear of G-dÓ. (Isaiah 11:2)
¥ Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership. (Isaiah 11:4)
¥ He will be descended from David HaMelech (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
¥ Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4).
¥ He will be a messenger of peace. (Isaiah 52:7)
¥ There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8).
¥ Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
¥ Knowledge of G-d will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9).
¥ The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23).
¥ All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19).
¥ Jews will have returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
¥ The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11).
¥ The Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26)
¥ The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55).
¥ The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvos.
¥ The whole world will worship the One G-d of Israel. (Isaiah 2:17)

With credit to

http://www.kosherjudaism.com/moshiach.pdf

for the list. Anyway, Jesus didn't fulfill all of that.

I already gave you a quote from Torah:

"If you do good, won't there be special privilege? And if you do not do good, sin waits at the door. It lusts after you, but you can dominate it." Gen 4:7"

Now, if you need more evidence that sin can be overcome ourselves, without any type of intermediary or intercessor or human sacrifice, I can provide that too. If you're looking for quotes from English translations based on the greek and latin translations of the Hebrew text for every example I give, and will only find those acceptable, I'm sorry, you're in my garden, I'm not in yours. But I can offer you this website:

http://unbound.biola.edu/

It offers the ability to compare many of the different Christian translations, which is very useful. And I'm sure if you look you'll find a few that are close to what I've offered you.

if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. [2 Chronicles 7:14]

He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state. [Job 33:26]

Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced; burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. [Psalm 40:6]

Take words with you and return to the Eternal. Say to him: "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the bulls of our lips. [Hosea 14:2]

He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy. [Proverbs 28:13]

Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the Eternal a man avoids evil. [Proverbs 16:6]

To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the Eternal than sacrifice. [Proverbs 21:3]

For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. [Hosea 6:6]

With what shall I come before the Eternal and bow down before the exalted God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the Eternal be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Eternal require of you? Only to do Justice, and to love Mercy and to walk humbly with your God. [Micah 6:6-8]

Please don't yell. It doesn't help get your point across. It just makes it look like you're starting to lose your cool. We don't need the Tanach to tell us how to read prophecy every time it comes up. We already know how. Stop trying to treat Judaism like it's sola scriptura.

As you are quite aware, just as you have a text besides the tanach which guides you in understanding it, so do we. Nor is there any reason whatsoever we should have to play by your rules. You came here.

Yes they are. It doesn't matter what the founder of an organization says. Jesus was just a human being. His word is no greater than anyone else's. If Washington said that Americans didn't murder, that wouldn't mean we could write it off. If you want to pass off Jesus as divine, go do it somewhere else. He's just another Jew who got killed by the Romans.

Actually, there's a big difference. When a home is on fire, everybody sees it. And a slight jostle will wake the people up. If the people don't wake up, you can simply remove them without disturbing their sleep. Whereas you on the other hand are jumping up and down, waving your arms. If you want to save people, don't do it by getting into debates on a forum. Live by example. Those who are interested will come your way.

Unfortunately, you're not telling. You're shouting. And you're not stopping. And, as I like to put it, you've let your dog wander into my yard. Now I'm here cleaning up the mess.

Actually no, I don't recall. Perhaps you're thinking of a fiction created by the early Christians to court the Romans. The Jews were, after all, being heavily persecuted by the Romans at that time, just like the early Christians.

Far from it, and if you look at deuteronomy for example, it details what happens if you keep the brit, and what happens if you don't (remember, if you will, the midrash I believe I mentioned, about how God first visited all the other nations and they wouldn't accept the brit, and Israel only would with a mountain held over their head (and please don't confuse Judaism with Christianity. According to Judaism, the real difference between a Jew and non-Jew is that a Jew has more responsibilities.), yet it is still an eternal covenant. God cannot go back on that. And your translation is incorrect. Here is a better one (which I will parse as I go along, emphasis mine):



40. They will then confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers their betrayal that they dealt Me, and that they also treated Me as happenstance.
41. Then I too, will treat them as happenstance and bring them [back while] in the land of their enemies. If then, their clogged heart becomes humbled, then, [their sufferings] will gain appeasement for their iniquity,

(this is one part. The next part is a given, which I will give evidence for later.)

42. and I will remember My covenant [with] Jacob, and also My covenant [with] Isaac, and also My covenant [with] Abraham I will remember. And I will remember the Land,
43. [For] the Land will be bereft of them, appeasing its sabbaticals when it had been desolate of them, and they will gain appeasement for their iniquity. This was all in retribution for their having despised My ordinances and in retribution for their having rejected My statutes.
44. But despite all this,

(in other words, even with all of this stuff that went on, and all of the problems that happened)

while they are in the land of their enemies, I will not despise them nor will I reject them to annihilate them, thereby breaking My covenant that is with them, for I am the Lord their God.

(Notice the emphasis here placed on the fact that the covenant will not be broken, that there is a covenant in place which neither side can back out of.)

45. I will remember for them the covenant [made with] the ancestors, whom I took out from the land of Egypt before the eyes of the nations, to be a God to them. I am the Lord.

Well, thanks for letting your true feelings be known. Telling all the Jews on the Jewish board that we're not right with God.

How was it easier then? And yes, that happened, and according to the tanach there were repercussions for that. But you pray to a mangod who is part of a god-who-is-three, which seems like avodah zara to me.

It's not present tense, but the answer is Israel. And the word isn't gentiles. That's a mistranlation. The word is goyim. In yiddish goyim means gentiles, but in Hebrew it means nations. And to your other question, Israel as well.

Now this is the type of thing that really isn't appropriate on the Jewish board. You're just evangelizing. And you keep mentioning prophecy after prophecy, yet you haven't demonstrated any prophecies. The only thing you've demonstrated is that you believe strongly that Jesus is the messiah, despite the text, which is fine, and I'm glad you're happy and you've found a belief that works for you. I'm sure you're in good company on Christians boards and forums.

 

What do you mean by demonstrating prophecy?

Also, keep in mind most people on the Christian forum are NOT Christian.

 

There is so much I would like to say here, but I am leaving for work soon. So just let me say this on Isaiah 49:6 for now. I have no idea how you can possibly believe that the light to the nations could be Israel, when God is speaking to His Servant, and telling Him, it is to small of a thing to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel, I have kept.

Are you saying, it is to small of a thing for Israel to bring back Israel?

And perhaps you do believe that Jesus Christ is just another Jew, but I got to tell you, if your honest with yourself. It's Jesus Christ who has become the light to the nations, and not Israel. Billions are followers of Christ. And it is an America nation that is filled with Jesus Christ believers, that is supporting Israel today. It should be obvious even to you, that it is because of that Jew the Romans killed two thousand years ago, that Israel has such a friend in America today. As it turned out, that Jew, is the best friend Israel ever had. And I can tell you, that's no accident.

 

All presuming of course that there is a god !!
And that your perception of god is the right one out of the
1000 or two that are worshipped
And that they are wrong

http://www.godisimaginary.com

WOW A PROPHET OF GOD WALKS ON THE EARTH
go on I'm all ears

 

There are thousands of Gods, but one God is head and shoulders above the rest, and it is His believers who support the nation of Israel today. The Bible speaks of the many Gods that existed in the past, and it branded them as false God's. If you were to look at which faith has had the most positive effect for the people of this world, especially consindering the outreach to the nations, and sending forth people to help the down and out. Hands down, it would be the Christian faith. Most faith take care of themselves, Christians have reached out to every people, and every nation across the globe.

 

heh heh heh ! yeah I know what you mean - like the Incas
It must have felt great when they realised that they had been wrong all those years offering each other up for sacrifice - especially when the christians could slaughter them (sorry I mean "reach out to them") all in one fell swoop. I bet they felt good about the spanish taking all their gold to give to the real god -
Oh and what about the Africans where the christian missionaries helped enslave these savages and ship them off to the USA (damn: again i mean "reach out to them") - wow are they glad christianity touched their lives - One minute all miserable because the crops had failed and having wars tribally - then suddenly - the answer slavery and being whipped into submission to kneel before christ wow that so humane of christians I may convert- not to mention the crusades I expect but hell why not?

There aint a lot of support for for the Israeli Nazi's in Britain even amongst the most gullible of christians- just which god is killing the palestinians ? Allah? or your benevelent god ? You can half forgive anyone of the Jewish culture outside Israel for being gullibly taken in by the Israeli forces of evil but not a christian - seems to me christianity is at the heart of all evil and supports whichever side looks like it might win (according to you, that is) or is it just that you dislike muslims even more !!! Because in the history of Europe christians slaughtered (oops I mean "reached out to") many more jews than hitler ever killed (oh damn: " I mean reached out to")

Well new brooms do tend to want to make a clean sweep but thats a bit like rewriting history isnt it? After all there is some dispute as to whether the son of the christian god was Dionysus or Krishna? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus

PS: I like that "reached out to" phrase hides a multitude of sins doesnt it?
or werent those real christians - uh ? just terrorists eh?

 

Well I see you don't know that there is a difference between those who claim to be Christian's, and those who actually are Christian. Jesus said, many would stand before Him and say, Lord, Lord, have we not done many wonderful things in your name, and in your name have done many wonderful works. And Jesus will tell them. Depart from me, I never knew you. People who murder other people, are not Christian, and I dont care if they look religious or not. Because Jesus tells us, no murder will enter the Kingdom of God. Apparently you think Gods Church is an extension of any nation or country that appears religious. GET REAL. The Bible is clear on this, and if you want to believe what you do, your belief is based on worldly ignorance of the written Word.

And God has allowed the Jews to return to Israel not for there sakes, but for His holy name. When the nations try to finally push the Jews out of their land, God will demonstrate His power to the World. In that day, which is soon to come, there will be no more talk about God being dead. Ezekiel chapters 37, 38, 39.

 

Something is missing here ..as i recalll NO GOD OF ANY KIND came to rescue the Jews in 1941/1945 now if theres was such thing of great magnitude like WW2 THEN WHAT IS? JEWS WERE NOT IN A BIG JAM WITH THE EGYPTIANS LIKE THE WERE WITH THE NAZIS . This a perfect xample of no God Not really existing .

 

The war that is to come will be far greater than Wold War II. And it is Gods will, that the war to come will be over the fate of Jerusalem. God also states, He will defend the Jews of that day, but not for their sakes. God tells us that He scattered the Jews among the nations because they had sinned against Him. As so stated in Ezekiel 36:19 and 20. God tells us, that near the time of the end, He would return them back to their own land. What God is going to do has little to do with the jam Jews may find themselves in. It has everything to do with God revealing to the world, who He is.