How can Christians hold up Christ as the ONLY proven way to spirituality?

I think Armageddon is a Christian revenge fantasy, kinda like a first century Quentin Tarantino's Inglorious Bastards, only with Romans instead of Nazis. Revelations describes events the author, John of Patamos, expected to occur in his own time. Christians at the time were undergoing major persecution by the emperor (either Nero or Domitian), and Revelation is a prediction things will be set right. Something like it could actually happen in our own time, possibly as a self-fulfilling prophecy by people who listen to sidewalk sermons or watch televangelists.

 

Isaiah presents certain acts of God as unique and strange. Some have said that God's love had to morph to the given situation since death entered the world in Genesis, but God's original way will return after the old ways of things change.

I see it as the Jews leading way to Jesus, but during that time many people opposed the Jews to the point of ...well, trolling them, such as killing the weakest of the bunch and running away after.

The God of the Bible is described as both a God of Mercy and a God of Justice. So this split of this, his morphing to the situation gives God another characteristic, depending on the complexity on the given situation.

But with Jesus, and the removal of original sin, and seeing God through his Son Jesus, all Christians are now asked to take on the 'good fight'; The good fight is a spiritual battle and is described as the only fighting that can be considered good.

The Bible mentions that although our conscience is cleared, we are not innocent and that we as Christians leave judgement up to God. So in that way, by Christians leaving things up to God, burns the bridge on the matter on whether or not Christians should go on murder sprees, bomb abortion clinics, hate homosexuals, or fight against intellectualism.

 

:smilielol5:
I knew you had to believe something like that and I suppose that you throw out most of what Jesus said in Matthew chapters 24 & 25 as well.

 

Why so? Chapter 25 is one of my favorites, an embodiment of my Christian values. Chapter 24 does present problems. Esteemed Christian writer, C.S. Lewis calls 24:34 the most embarrassing passage in the Bible, because Jesus says that generation would not pass before His coming.

 

If you'll notice Matthew 24:3 says; While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” What follows in chapters 24 & 25 are an answer to that question. Since you seem to not believe that there will be a "conclusion of the system of things", it just seems that you would also have a problem with all the Jesus said about that "conclusion of the system of things".

As for 24:34, it seems that Jesus is saying that from the time that the first of the signs that he is talking about happens to the "conclusion of the system of things" will be one generation. I happen to believe we are that generation and that the "conclusion of the system of things" will soon be upon us.

 

Hmmmmmmmmm. It says: "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass till all these things be fufiled". And your saying "this generation" means one that will come later? Nice try!

While we're on the subject of Matthew, Matthew 27:52-54 says that when Jesus died, "the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that slept arose. And came out of the graves after his resurrection and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Night of the Living Dead! Do you think that actually happened? Isn't surprising that nobody else, including the writers of the other gospels, mentioned the event?

 

That temple didn't collapse until years later after his death, so maybe the generation he was pointing to was this generation of things; this age of the world until the time he returns.

Is generation meant as this age of things?

"and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

It's a conversation between Jesus and his disciples, and for those that read it and take to heart what he is saying. It's no different than someone you know warning you of an impending war and taking their advice.

 

Yes he does say this generation, the one living in the future time that he is talking about.

Here are some thoughts on the matter.

Does Matthew 27:52, 53 mean that at the time of Jesus’ death some persons in the grave were resurrected?

Many Bible commentators feel that this is what these verses mean. Yet scholars admit that the sense and proper translation of these verses is unusually difficult. Actually, there are reasons to believe that these verses mean that when Jesus died the accompanying earthquake broke open tombs near Jerusalem and thus exposed corpses to passersby.

Matthew 27:52, 53 says that “the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.”—Common Bible.

But if a resurrection occurred when Jesus died, as this and other translations suggest, would the resurrected ones have waited until after Jesus’ own resurrection, on the third day after this, before leaving their tombs? Why would God resurrect such “saints” or “holy ones” at this time, since Jesus was to be “the firstborn from the dead”? (Col. 1:18; 1 Cor. 15:20) Also, it was during Christ’s future presence that anointed Christians or “holy ones” were to share in the first resurrection.—1 Thess. 3:13; 4:14-17; Rev. 20:5, 6.

Observe that, strictly speaking, the account does not say that the “bodies” came to life. It merely says that they were raised up or thrown out of the tombs by the earthquake. A similar thing happened in the town of Sonson in Colombia in 1962. El Tiempo (July 31, 1962) reported: “Two hundred corpses in the cemetery of this town were thrown out of their tombs by the violent earth tremor.” Persons passing by or through that cemetery saw the corpses, and, as a result, many of the people in Sonson had to go out and rebury their dead relatives.

Without wresting the Greek grammar, a translator can render Matthew 27:52, 53 in a way that suggests that a similar exposing of corpses resulted from the earthquake occurring at Jesus’ death. Thus the translation by Johannes Greber (1937) renders these verses: “Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.”—Compare the New World Translation.

Along with the rending of the temple curtain separating the Holy from the Most Holy, this violent earthquake, which exposed corpses that were soon seen by travelers who brought the news into Jerusalem, served as additional proof that Jesus was no mere criminal executed for wrongdoing. He was the Messiah and the one who would shortly be the firstborn from the dead destined for heavenly life.

 

Which generation saw the beginning of the signs though?

1914? The baby-boomers? Myself and other 80's babies? Those of the 21st Century?

It is easy to say "we are living in the end times" because we've been living in them since AD 33 give or take a couple years...

 

So "went into the holy city and were seen by many" means the dead bodies were tossed upright out of their graves by the holy city.? Much more plausible. Something needs to be done about some of these other translations.

 

If we've been "living in the end times" since 33 CE would you say that would more that one generation?

 

I think what it's saying is that those who saw the bodies went into the city not that the bodies went into the cities.

 

"..many of God's people who had died were raised to life. They left their graves, and after Jeus rose from the dead, they went into the Holy City where many people saw them." (Good News Bible)

"...many of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of their tombsafter His Resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many."(NASB/ RSV)

''...many of the bodies of the saints which slept arose. and came out of the graves afterhis resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many." (KJV)

"The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. They left the cemetery after Jeus' resurrection , went into the city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people." (NLT)

It seems that several learned translators don't share your take on what the passage is saying

 

As I already posted;

"Many Bible commentators feel that this is what these verses mean. Yet scholars admit that the sense and proper translation of these verses is unusually difficult. Actually, there are reasons to believe that these verses mean that when Jesus died the accompanying earthquake broke open tombs near Jerusalem and thus exposed corpses to passersby."

"But if a resurrection occurred when Jesus died, as this and other translations suggest, would the resurrected ones have waited until after Jesus’ own resurrection, on the third day after this, before leaving their tombs? Why would God resurrect such “saints” or “holy ones” at this time, since Jesus was to be “the firstborn from the dead”? (Col. 1:18; 1 Cor. 15:20) Also, it was during Christ’s future presence that anointed Christians or “holy ones” were to share in the first resurrection.—1 Thess. 3:13; 4:14-17; Rev. 20:5, 6."

"Without wresting the Greek grammar, a translator can render Matthew 27:52, 53 in a way that suggests that a similar exposing of corpses resulted from the earthquake occurring at Jesus’ death. Thus the translation by Johannes Greber (1937) renders these verses: “Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.”—Compare the New World Translation."

I merely said that this could be the answer to your question. If you wish to continue to believe that what is said in Matthew doesn't make sense, that is up to you.

 

I'm skeptical of Gerber's translation. I know he's respected in Jehovah's Witness circles, but he was a spirit medium, and that makes me suspicious of anything he says. I think we need to wrestle with the Greek grammar. The passage is not particularly challenging to my faith, since I allow Matthew some latitude for hyperbole in conveying the cosmic gravity of Christ's death.

 

Once again, that's fine. I was just offering a possible explanation, one that seems to make sense to me but as you say "the passage is not particularly challenging to my faith".

 

Thanks for the heads up on Gerber, I was not aware of his being a spirit medium and now I too I'm skeptical of him.

As for him being "respected in Jehovah's Witness circles" I found this statement about him by Jehovah's Witnesses:
Why, in recent years, has The Watchtower not made use of the translation by the former Catholic priest, Johannes Greber?

This translation was used occasionally in support of renderings of Matthew 27:52, 53 and John 1:1, as given in the New World Translation and other authoritative Bible versions. But as indicated in a foreword to the 1980 edition of The New Testament by Johannes Greber, this translator relied on “God’s Spirit World” to clarify for him how he should translate difficult passages. It is stated: “His wife, a medium of God’s Spiritworld was often instrumental in conveying the correct answers from God’s Messengers to Pastor Greber.” The Watchtower has deemed it improper to make use of a translation that has such a close rapport with spiritism. (Deuteronomy 18:10-12) The scholarship that forms the basis for the rendering of the above-cited texts in the New World Translation is sound and for this reason does not depend at all on Greber’s translation for authority. Nothing is lost, therefore, by ceasing to use his New Testament.

 

damn thats harsh.