Holocaust Revisionism

Ok... take 2... right?

I decided instead of getting annoyed or anything that the old thread was closed, I would start a new thread with a redefined purpose.

Perhaps the problem with the old thread was that it had a sloppy focus. So, here is a new focus!

This thread is for open discussion of Holocaust revisionism. It is for free and open discussion of the topic of the Holocaust, facts regarding it, sharing of opinions, and also for discussion of relevant contextual topics such as the (arguable) control of freedom of speech regarding this topic.

That is its primary purpose.

I don't mind small digressions of course, as with all threads.

I hope that that clarifies things, and I hope that this thread does better than the previous one

Peace, dudes.

 

No disrespect friend.But Hitler and his mob gassed a hell of a lot of Jews just because they were Jews.There's no two ways around this although I suppose you could argue the numbers a million here or there.I'm not defending modern Jewish Zionism or the plight of the Palestinians,but history is history.Hitler would also have gassed me because under his definition I would have be deemed mentally ill and a painter of degenerate art,but then that's going some places.

 

Maybe if you changed the topic to something like Denial of History. Should it be Criminal?
That'd be a groovy name man.
Peace, Love, & Understanding
IH

 

haha, people were upset that you wouldn't participate in WHAT you questioned about it and why and then you still don't include this info in your second attempt for drama.


/DIGRESSION

 

Actually, I have seen no real proof of systematic gassing -- just anecdotal accounts. IG Farben's Zyklon B was used as a delousing agent, and it has shown to be ineffective in killing rooms full of people. The so-called "gas chambers" were really delousing chambers.

http://www.whale.to/b/delousing_h.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJIFOob4tdI"]Zyklon B test on humans - YouTube

 

The thing is, in late April of 1945, the New York Times reported that four million died at Auschwitz. That figure was repeated for the next fifty years. Then, in early 1995, the same New York Times and the Washington Post reported that Polish authorities had determined that, at most, one and a half million died at Auschwitz, and that those who died had died of all causes, including natural causes. They also said that they were of all races and religions. So, there's some revisionism right there.

Even five years before that The Washington times did a reprint of an article found in The London Daily Telegraph. They reported that Poland had cut its estimate of the number of people killed at Auschwitz from four million to just over one million. So, there's some revisionism there, too.

Then there's the director of the historical committee of the Auschitz-Birkenaw Museum who said that, according to recent research, at least 1.3 million people were deported to the camp, and that about two hundred and twenty thousand survived. He also said that, of the million or so who died, nine hundred and sixty thousand were jews, about seventy-five thousand were Poles, twenty-three thousand were Gypsies, and fifteen thousand were Soviet POWs.

The head of research at Israel's memorial for Jewish holocaust victims, Shmuel Krakowsky, says that the new Polish estimates were correct. He said, "The four million figure was let slip by Capt. Rudolf Hoess, the death camp's Nazi commander. Some have bought it, but it was exaggerated."

So, it would appear that revisionism has been going on for some time now. Hard to believe that you could go to jail in other countries for examining the details of the holocaust and asking questions about it. I mean, what the fuck is that about?

 

Interesting video, PR. I did a little looking around, too, and found this: http://codoh.com/library/document/684

I had no idea how much I didn't know.

 

Thanks for the great posts Pressed_Rat and storch

I agree that the crucial thing here is ensuring a debate is even allowed in society, because as you say storch, often people are imprisoned for even trying to discuss this, which I find very odd.

Once debate is open and free to go on unabated, finally we can start to do research and prove or disprove various pieces of information.

Nobody is saying they know for sure, and hopefully nobody is unwilling to be swayed by evidence. But the trick is to throw all the doors wide open, so to speak, do research, present cited facts and get down to the nitty gritty and find out what is most likely to have happened.

I agree storch that it's mad to say that revisionism is a waste of time when THE OFFICIAL, MAINSTREAM Holocaust sources and historians are revising massive parts of this fairly frequently. For example, the huge reduction in deaths, the presence of other kinds of chambers such as "electro-chambers", soap made from dead inmates of the camp, lampshades and all of that - apparently all of these things are fabrications and propaganda.

The Soviets and Allies spread propaganda all the time, just like the Germans did. And apparently they too had concentration camps.

There is no question that concentration camps have existed in all different places throughout history including Nazi Germany. The question is which, if any, were DEATH camps, which is a very different thing.

It's one thing to hold people against their will to make them work (labour camp) or similar, it's quite another to systematically kill them (death camp).

 

So all of those who were actually there and have said that Auschwitz and other places like it were death camps, do their stories mean nothing? Do you honestly believe that Ann Frank and other more modern writers like Ellie Wiesel are actually fiction? Have you read books like Night? Have you ever been told the story of Kristallnacht? If such stories are complete fiction then I would pity the minds that created them. To have such horror, such cruelty, such inhumanity poor forth from them.....

 

there have been plenty of prisoner to come forward saying the conditions were exaggeration .. Russians for example liberated a few camps. To gain US sympathy and support they lied a little. While I wont deny millions died and or were put to death, the conditions during the war lead to natural deaths as well.

Secondly while Germany was running out of viable fuel. I dont see why they would waste tons of natural gas to burn bodies. When the Luftwaffe covered liquid gas into fuel for aircraft's, that were much more important in the war machine than disposing of a dead body. It would be easier to truck them all into a steel mill blast furnace.

Try looking for more recent atrocities like Bosnia..

 

Of course the Russians liberated a few camps. Do you really want to know about what they did with bodies when they didn't burn them?
Holocaust Controversies

 

And your point?

 

If somebody were to say or a legitimate source was to say right now that, for e.g, 4 million Jews died in Auschwitz.
I would say they should reference modern evidence rather than reference information/speculation that could be upto nearly 80 years old.

I do not think anybody has been imprisoned purely for questioning the No.s often cited (even if outdated/revised)...

What has imprisoned somebody is denial. (maybe this thread needs a little revision)

e.g: David Irving was sentenced to three years in prison after he admitted denying the Holocaust.

This isn't questioning the No.s this is just outright denying it even happened (regardless of No.s).

He, perhaps, ironically, revised his position: he had revised his opinion after seeing the personal files of Adolf Eichmann. Speaking in German, he told the court he now accepted that the Nazis had killed millions of Jews.

He expressed sorrow for "all the innocent people" who died during the war. "I made a mistake when I said there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz," he said.

"History is a constantly growing tree - the more you know, the more documents become available, the more you learn. And I have learned a lot since 1989.

"Yes, there were gas chambers. Millions of Jews died. There is no question. I don't know the figures. I'm not an expert on the Holocaust."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/20/austria.thefarright

The last bit is probably true of most of, if not all, of us.

I would imagine many Holocaust deniers would dismiss Mr Irving and accuse him of caving in and, well, I'm sure you can imagine the types of comments that would be made...I probably should find a few.

Would you two care to give an e.g? (denial not revision)

 

Indy,

If you look at the link I provided, then you saw this:

At a historic 1985 trial in Toronto, witnesses were grilled for the first time ever over the existence of the alleged "gas chambers," and it was found that no such testimony would stand up. On the fourth day of this trial, a marvellous climax was reached when Zundel's lawyer Doug Christie put these questions to a top "Holocaust" expert Dr Raul Hillberg, author of the multi-volume, multi-edition work, The Destruction of the European Jews:

Christie: Can you give me one scientific report that shows the existence of gas chambers anywhere in Nazi-occupied territory?

Hilberg: I'm at a loss.

 

So, Odon, you're admitting that someone was imprisoned for disbelieving the holocaust? And you're OK with that? You think justice was served?

And if you read the link I provided, you wouldn't need to ask who has been jailed.

 

Germar Rudolf, a chemistry expert who played a major role in debunking the "Jewish holocaust" hoax, had been arrested in October 2005 and held in a prison some 50 miles from Chicago. The original charges related to an alleged missing of an appointment at the Chicago office of the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS). According to Rudolf and his lawyer, they did not receive a letter informing of the appointment, and they were never even shown a copy of the letter. A few weeks later, Rudolf was deported to Germany to face trial for "holocaust denial".

Rudolf proved that the walls of the tiny delousing rooms at Auschwitz had high cyanide concentrations whilst the large putative "gas chambers" rooms had zero or negligible cyanide content. Rudolf's findings were corroborated by at least three independent expert analyses. The "gas chambers" hoax was an opportunistic scam based on the fact that the Germans did actually use Zyklon B (hydrogen cyanide) in order to fumigate and delouse the internees' clothing in an attempt to reduce the number of typhoid victims. As long ago as 1992, the Head of Archives and Senior Curator at the Polish government's Auschwitz State Museum admitted to a Jewish researcher on videotape (available as a free download) that the "gas chamber" at the Auschwitz I main camp was reconstructed from an air raid shelter after the war. The Simon Wiesenthal Center was caught red-handed forging fake "smoke" onto wartime photographs of Auschwitz.

Do you believe this, Odon?

 

Did I deny it?

Germar Rudolf? I think that is denial not revision.

 

Believe what?

 

Well, then we have no argument if you believe that people should be jailed for denying something. We simply disagree as to what constitutes a crime.

Ever hear of Ernst Zundel? He didn't deny the holocaust; he only expressed disbelief of certain aspects of it. He was jailed as a result.

What do you mean "believe what"? You know what I'm asking you. Look at everything that comes before "Do you believe this, Odon?"

And while you're at it, why don't you explain why people who deny something should be jailed.

 

This, Odon. Do you believe this?

Rudolf proved that the walls of the tiny delousing rooms at Auschwitz had high cyanide concentrations whilst the large putative "gas chambers" rooms had zero or negligible cyanide content. Rudolf's findings were corroborated by at least three independent expert analyses. The "gas chambers" hoax was an opportunistic scam based on the fact that the Germans did actually use Zyklon B (hydrogen cyanide) in order to fumigate and delouse the internees' clothing in an attempt to reduce the number of typhoid victims. As long ago as 1992, the Head of Archives and Senior Curator at the Polish government's Auschwitz State Museum admitted to a Jewish researcher on videotape (available as a free download) that the "gas chamber" at the Auschwitz I main camp was reconstructed from an air raid shelter after the war. The Simon Wiesenthal Center was caught red-handed forging fake "smoke" onto wartime photographs of Auschwitz.